I bought some years ago a "Literary Biography of Baron Joseph Eotvos" by =
Steven B=E9la Vardy.=20
I think his writings are well worth revisiting.
In his book "The influence of the dominant ideas of the nineteenth =
century upon the state" Eotvos dissects the ideas of liberty, equality =
and fraternity and the real and apparant contradictions in the =
concurrent application of these ideas.=20
Unfortunately I have not been able to find this work either in Hungarian =
or in English but his ideas are worth pursuing.
Regards
D=E9nes

At 23:57 31/01/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffman wrote:
 on Jan 30 20:47:33 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #900:
>
>>You can always tell the difference between me and Janos -- I'm the one whose
>>English is intelligible.
>
>This can4t be true. Quite arrogant. Ein "haesslicher
>Amerikaner". Dabei war ich immer ein Freund Amerikas.
>Disappointed. I quite often shared his opinions.
>Ertelmes embernek tuent volt...
>Miklos Hoffmann

Sam uses ridicule to belittle someone with whom he disagrees philosophically
and ideologically. His comment has very little to do with Janos's actual
fluency in English, which I would judge is excellent. Furthermore, I
certainly don't feel that Janos' views are in any way extreme - more like a
small 'c' conservative - but to an LBJ liberal like Sam, that is anathema.

TTFN,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

E.Balogh wrote:

>        But there were other things which worried the Court and it would
>have worried me a bit too if I had been one of the people around the king.
>The Hungarians furiously began to organize the national guard and by July,
>they had 10,000 people armed.


Geee, 10,000 'nemzetor' (~national guard). Jelacic had 35,000 *south serbs*
(courtasy of S.Stowe) when he crossed the Hungarian border, Windisch-Graetz
had 70,000 when he crushed the revolution in Vienna and later entered in
Hungary. The Hungarians themselves built up a force of 170,000 during the
winter 1848. I would not call the establishment of some nemzetor regiment
furious arming.

>        Dangerous from whose point of view? I guess it is dangerous if
>Hungary wanted to have a personal union only and even that is not too well
>defined! But that pretty well would have put an end to even a semblance of
>unity. As far as the Court was concerned the next step would be electing
>Archduke Stephen or somebody else as king (as the matter of fact there were
>talks about such a move on the streets of Pest). Without a common treasury
>there could be no common army. And without a common army there couldn't be
>common foreign policy. So, for all practical purposes, Hungary would have
>been independent with a figurehead of a king sitting in Vienna which was
>considered to be foreign soil! Thus, the king's absence from the country,
>the palatine--and who knows who this palatine would be in twenty
>years--would practically rule while the Hungarian parliament went ahead and
>made foreign policy, financial policy, and had an army of its own. Surely,
>this would have been a mockery of a common monarchy.

I understand your point you don't have to repeat it again and again. I know
that some of the hungarian demands was suspecious in Vienna. But as much the
court was not sure about the Hungarian intention the Hungarians was not sure
what to expect from Austria (non-magyar part of the empire).
"In the spring and summer of 1848, the Habsburg monarchy had no real government
.
In May, the emperor and the court fled to Innsbruck in Tyrol to escape the
Viennese revolutionaries, many of whom demanded that Austria  meld with the
united German national state now forming at Frankfurt.........In Prague, a
National Committee claimed authority over the Czech lands. In Hungary and
Transylvania, several national committees sprang up in defiance of the new
Hungarian government. Northen Italy was in a turmoil, and so, to a lesser
extent, were the Polish and Ruthenian inhabitants of Galicia."
(A History of Hungary, Sugar P.F.,Hanak P., Frank T., p217)

In such a situation to rely solely on the word of the Emperor (or the Court),
which was given 'admittedly under the gun', could have been considered
suicide. And there was a real danger, a very conservative circle was forming
in the army (imperial).
"Only momentarily stunned, the officer corps or, rather, a handful of generals,
began to think of the restoration (better to say "creation," for such a thing
had never existed) of a unitary monarchy. The generals were determined to do
this in defiance, if necessary, of the written orders of his majesty."
(Hanak et al.,p217)
And to show that this was not an empty threat.
"...Radetzky withdrew his army from Northern Italy into the Quadrilateral, a
system of mighty fortresses south of the Alps. There he ignored urgent requests
from the Austrian government to make concessions to the Italian revolutionaries
.
Instead, he prepared for a counter-offensive." (Hanak et al.,p218)
"..Because Hungarian influence still prevailed at court, Batthyany obtained
the signature of the king, first to condemn Jelacic and then, on June 10, to
deprive him of all of his offices. Jelacic, who also had friends at court,
ignored the royal decrees" (Hanak et al.,p220)

I don't say the Hungarian government was not responsible for the armed
conflict of 1848-49. But I am against the interpretation (represented
by E.Balogh) which makes them primarily responsible for it. There
was real danger to lose the constitutional rights (not only the
'ridicoulous' ones).

Finally I would like to ask E.Balogh for supportive facts that the court
, by and large, excepted the Hungarian demands. The fact itself that
the Emperor signed the April Laws is not such, as it contained demands
unacceptable by the court for longer run.
Also, why the constitutional righs were denied after the 'octroi'
constitution imerium-wide.
Why Windisch-Graetz insisted to the unconditional surrender, when
he recieved the peace mission sent by the Hungarian parlament during
the winter 1848-49. Up to that point the war was not too bloody and
there was no serious confrontation. Vienna (the court) was in winning
position and could have forced the Hungarians in a resonable compromise.

J.Zs

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (Kavar)
To:	
Date: 97-02-01 00:01:11 EST

Januar 14-en erkezett egy baratnomh=F6z,a lotharingiai Lixingbe a kovetke=
zo
valasz
nemet nyelven:
EPISKOP ROMANO-CATOLICA IASI
Bd,Stefan cel Mare nr.26 - 6600 Iasi-Tel.032/21 20 03, 212006:Fax 032/ 21=
 15
27

Prof.Vladimir PETERCA
Pristerseminar Iasi
Kultur es sajtofelelos=20
a Iasi-P=FCsp=F6ksegben
Romania

K=F6rvalasz (celzas a korlevelre)                   Iasi,2.01.1997
Igen tisztelt H=F6lgyeim es Uraim!
P=FCspokunk,Msgr Petru Gherghel es a Puspoki Tanacs megbizasabol szabadjo=
n az
Onok=20
l996 novemberi korlevelere a kovetkezoket kozolni:
a. Tudataban vagyunk annak hogy hiveink kulturalis,szellemi es nyelvi
oroksege
a mi helyi egyhazunk sajatja.Ennek kovetkezteben Ierarchiank elkotelezett
hiveink=20
jelenjerol es jovojerol gondoskodni.Elodeinkhez hasonloan,akik bennunket=20
misszionaltak azon igyekszunk,hogy a tradiciokat ugy megorizzuk,ahogyan
azokat=20
oseink mindig tiszteltek es tovabb adtak.
b. Az Egyhaznak mint az Isten nepe tovabba a belfoldi klerus anyjanak es=20
tanitojanak kizarolagos feladata a hiveket legitim elvarasuk es joguknak=20
megfeleloen lelkigondozasban reszesiteni. A kivulrol jovo nyomas szamunkr=
a a
puspokseg eletebe valo beavatkozast,de  hiveink erzelmeinek megserteset i=
s=20
jelenti. Az Egyhaz igazi nyelve a hit nyelve,amely  hiveink identitasat
igazolja=20
es amely  altalaluk el van fogadva.
c. Az Egyhaz nem a politikai vitak,haszontalan konfliktusok vagy nacional=
is=20
erzelmek szintere.Az Egyhaz minden ember szolgalataban all,nem  az a fela=
data

hogy egyesek "kivansagat" teljesitse,hanem hogy realisztikusan cselekedje=
k=20
hiveink vallasi identitasanak evszazodra visszanyulo tiszteletbentartasav=
al.
d. A mod es a forma.ahogyan Onok a leveleket tartalmilag megszerkesztette=
k es

elkuldtek,valojaban azt bizonyitja,hogy az Onok szandeka egy koncentralt =
jol=20
orchestralt akcio kialakitasa erkolcsi nyomas kifejtese erdekeben.Ez nem
felel=20
meg az id=F6 szellemenek,illetve a koncil dokumentjenek s papank,II.Janos=
-Pal
tanainak.
e. Informacioik minosege nagyon ketseges,ugyanugy, mint az Onok forrasa:=20
Bizonyitek erre az onok allitasa " they moved into Moldova in the 14-14th=
=20
centuries....when they left Hungary!" Ezek az allitasok szerfolott=20
hamisak.Meglepo es sajnalatos,hogyan lettek ezek a levelek kieszelve,azaz
ugyanaz=20
a sz=F6veg ugyanazzal a tartalommal,csupan a feladok kulonboznek. Hogy ez=
ek a=20
feladok milyen mertekben ismerik a mi kozossegeineket, abszolut
kerdeses.Bizonyi-=20
tekul szolgaljanak a kovetkez=F6 hibak:
1. Puspokunket nem Gergel -nek,hanem Gherghel - nek hivjak
2. Ugyanugy: a bucaresti ersek nem Jan Robu, hanem Joan Robu
3-Helyesen irva Pustiana s nem Pustina
4.Nem letezik  egy  Lazped nevu helyseg, csak Lespezi.
 Vegulis az az allitas,hogy "a magyar nyelv az ordog nyelve,kizarolag Ono=
kre=20
tartozik es ezert onok felelosek, szamunkra ez provokacio. =20
Szivelyes udvozlettel
Vl.Peterca=20
=20
Koszonettel nyugtazzuk Peterca professor ur javitasait,melynek
viszonzasakent:
1. Beauftragter   es nem Beauftrager
2. Hierarchie      "  " Ierarhie
3. unnuetzlich     "  " unnuetzibble
4. jahrhundertelangen " jahrhundentlanger
5. Beweis          es " Beweiss
6. reelle          "  " reele
Szivelyes udvozlettel
Dr.K.K.-A.

Dear listmembers,

Agnes's experiences with returning to the list reminded me that
it might be a good idea to point out a way or two that you can
try to avoid suffering half-hour downloads and other expensive
niceties...

Admittedly, listserv is dinosaur technology, especially when run
on VMS as we do here, but still you can:

set your list options to "nomail" when you know you are going on
vacation, and then reset them to "mail" when you return,

or, contact me to do the same thing,

or, leave them permanently set to "nomail," and then read the
list via HIX, or bit.listserv.hungary -- but by being a subscriber,
even if set to "nomail", your own contributions are recognized and
accepted for distribution to the list.

(Note: Zoli has repeated pointed out that the propagation of bit.
listserv.hungary leaves something to be desired, to put it mildly,
so the hix service may be best for this option).

If you want to see what you missed, the archives for each week are
logged, and are available from GWUVM.

Hope this might help you avoid similar problems in the future.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew
listowner

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (Kavar)
To:     
Date: 97-02-01 00:01:11 EST

Januar 14-en erkezett egy baratnomh=F6z,a lotharingiai Lixingbe a kovetke=
zo
valasz
nemet nyelven:
EPISKOP ROMANO-CATOLICA IASI
Bd,Stefan cel Mare nr.26 - 6600 Iasi-Tel.032/21 20 03, 212006:Fax 032/ 21=
 15
27

Prof.Vladimir PETERCA
Pristerseminar Iasi
Kultur es sajtofelelos=20
a Iasi-P=FCsp=F6ksegben
Romania

K=F6rvalasz (celzas a korlevelre)                   Iasi,2.01.1997
Igen tisztelt H=F6lgyeim es Uraim!
P=FCspokunk,Msgr Petru Gherghel es a Puspoki Tanacs megbizasabol szabadjo=
n az
Onok=20
l996 novemberi korlevelere a kovetkezoket kozolni:
a. Tudataban vagyunk annak hogy hiveink kulturalis,szellemi es nyelvi
oroksege
a mi helyi egyhazunk sajatja.Ennek kovetkezteben Ierarchiank elkotelezett
hiveink=20
jelenjerol es jovojerol gondoskodni.Elodeinkhez hasonloan,akik bennunket=20
misszionaltak azon igyekszunk,hogy a tradiciokat ugy megorizzuk,ahogyan
azokat=20
oseink mindig tiszteltek es tovabb adtak.
b. Az Egyhaznak mint az Isten nepe tovabba a belfoldi klerus anyjanak es=20
tanitojanak kizarolagos feladata a hiveket legitim elvarasuk es joguknak=20
megfeleloen lelkigondozasban reszesiteni. A kivulrol jovo nyomas szamunkr=
a a
puspokseg eletebe valo beavatkozast,de  hiveink erzelmeinek megserteset i=
s=20
jelenti. Az Egyhaz igazi nyelve a hit nyelve,amely  hiveink identitasat
igazolja=20
es amely  altalaluk el van fogadva.
c. Az Egyhaz nem a politikai vitak,haszontalan konfliktusok vagy nacional=
is=20
erzelmek szintere.Az Egyhaz minden ember szolgalataban all,nem  az a fela=
data

hogy egyesek "kivansagat" teljesitse,hanem hogy realisztikusan cselekedje=
k=20
hiveink vallasi identitasanak evszazodra visszanyulo tiszteletbentartasav=
al.
d. A mod es a forma.ahogyan Onok a leveleket tartalmilag megszerkesztette=
k es

elkuldtek,valojaban azt bizonyitja,hogy az Onok szandeka egy koncentralt =
jol=20
orchestralt akcio kialakitasa erkolcsi nyomas kifejtese erdekeben.Ez nem
felel=20
meg az id=F6 szellemenek,illetve a koncil dokumentjenek s papank,II.Janos=
-Pal
tanainak.
e. Informacioik minosege nagyon ketseges,ugyanugy, mint az Onok forrasa:=20
Bizonyitek erre az onok allitasa " they moved into Moldova in the 14-14th=
=20
centuries....when they left Hungary!" Ezek az allitasok szerfolott=20
hamisak.Meglepo es sajnalatos,hogyan lettek ezek a levelek kieszelve,azaz
ugyanaz=20
a sz=F6veg ugyanazzal a tartalommal,csupan a feladok kulonboznek. Hogy ez=
ek a=20
feladok milyen mertekben ismerik a mi kozossegeineket, abszolut
kerdeses.Bizonyi-=20
tekul szolgaljanak a kovetkez=F6 hibak:
1. Puspokunket nem Gergel -nek,hanem Gherghel - nek hivjak
2. Ugyanugy: a bucaresti ersek nem Jan Robu, hanem Joan Robu
3-Helyesen irva Pustiana s nem Pustina
4.Nem letezik  egy  Lazped nevu helyseg, csak Lespezi.
 Vegulis az az allitas,hogy "a magyar nyelv az ordog nyelve,kizarolag Ono=
kre=20
tartozik es ezert onok felelosek, szamunkra ez provokacio. =20
Szivelyes udvozlettel
Vl.Peterca=20
=20
Koszonettel nyugtazzuk Peterca professor ur javitasait,melynek
viszonzasakent:
1. Beauftragter   es nem Beauftrager
2. Hierarchie      "  " Ierarhie
3. unnuetzlich     "  " unnuetzibble
4. jahrhundertelangen " jahrhundentlanger
5. Beweis          es " Beweiss
6. reelle          "  " reele
Szivelyes udvozlettel
Dr.K.K.-A.