>
> I'll go first, Ken. I'm a non-Hungarian Jewish American. I married the
 daughter
> of the Calvinist minister of Papa, Hungary. Maybe he's rolling over in his
> grave, maybe not. Who gives a ----? We definitely have our cultural
 differences
> but we try to work them out, and we're raising our beautiful son to know both
> Hungarian and American cultures, and to a small extent, the religious back-
> grounds of his parents, who do not practice. We send him to a Quaker school
> because of its ethical underpinnings.
>    It's not always an easy ride, marrying out of one's culture, but one has t
o
> look to the future which, on balance is much more significant than the past.
>
> Regards, Marc

It's all luck and compromise, like with all relationships, parents
shouldn't have a say or at best they are allowed a "you'll be back in
6 months" (proved wrong).
There are people who make racist remarks in receptive company,
but wouldn't do anything to harm anybody, and couldn't be nicer to a
"stranger", others are politically correct to the extreme in words only.
I'd found, that  kids brought up to be Hungarian - scouts etc.
turn out to be less interested (bored) by the issue of "being Hungarian".
Forcing religion or non-religion has the same effect. Eva Durant

Hi, Ken!
I read HUNGARY the day after, so I'm not interactive.  Marc and perhaps others
too, is/are welcome to jump the queue.

Both of my born-abroad (grown-up) children have steady, serious relations to
non-Hungarian partners.  It has NEVER crossed my mind to steer them towards a
Hungarian community in order to choose partner from there.  Besides, speaking
(their mother/father tongue) Hungarian fluently, they wouldn't be handicapped
in that gathering.  I can't see, however, a major advantage with being a
Hungarian and I could name plenty of entries that would stay high on the list
of desirable attributes, while I'm not sure that Hungariannes is on the list at
all.  Culture certainly is!  (Maybe, in another posting I will elaborate on
this).

I think, by choosing the life abroad, outside the fabric of Hungarian society,
the parents implicitely accept that their offsprings, like themselves, immerse
in the "foreign" race, culture, history, background.  So, they become more
tolerant.  On the other hand, I have met people with whom I would be horrified
to have anything common, let alone membership of the family.  The fact that
these were Hungarians or non-Hungarians, was irrelevant!

Racial differences present a difficult question, testing one's tolerance. There
is a wide spectrum from the minute deviation to the VERY different. I have
friends, where the man is jewish, the wife is from schwabish stock, the
marriage seems to be stabil (after almost 30 years ;-)).  Similarity in colour,
language, cultural background, education, etc made the bond possible.  When
the racial gap is wider, the problem becomes deeper too.  The happiness of my
relatives in London were "limited" when the daughter started dating a black
guy.  I've found the chap good looking, "reasonably" clever, sufficiently
educated, well-dressed and he behaved better than I did.  Despite that the
modern, tolerant (social democratic) parents did not show their disapproval, it
was obvious that the boy deviated a step too much from the "expected standard".

I risk the statement that class and cultural differences (this might include
religious issues too) might reach the prohibitive level already at the start,
or cause deep conflict later, when the dominant attraction (love) has cooled
down a bit.  This seems to be true even for couples of the SAME race.  If these
differences are minimal or absent, racial issues are easier to bridge.  I'm
unable to extend this statement's validity to people whose intolerance is part
of their culture or class.

There is no reason, why Hungarians should be different from non-Hungarians and
I don't believe that they are.  Are you sure, Ken, that your problem is with
the Hungarianness of that family?

Regards,   Gabor

Hi guys, I think this is going too far but I am willing to help if I can.I am
leaving on saturday to work in Budapest for the Peace Corps. The director there
 has contects at higher levels,so if she knows of any e-mail number I will mail
 it back. I do this only if I get a high position in your new Hungarian e-mail
government.



                   bvhv

Dear listmembers,

The following is from a news release from the Hilsinki Comission of the
US Congress, co-chaired by Senator Dennis DeConcini and Rep. Steny Hoyer.

"  ....    [introduction deleted]     ....

In March of this year, a new government coalition came into office and has,
in relatively short space of time, taken a number of concrete steps which
bring Slovakia into greater compliance with international standards.  Perhaps
what is most gratifying about the improvements we have seen is that no single
party can lay claim to this record; on the contrary, it is a diverse coalition
representing broad segments of Slovak society that have made these changes
possible.  This has spurred our hope that the process of democratization will
continue, and indeed accelerate, in the coming months.

Of course, Slovakia will face considerable challenges in this regard,
particularly in the run up to the fall elections.  We are disturbed to see
that there appear to be elements in the majority Slovak community--and even
a few within the Hungarian minority--which are prepared to expoit ethnic
differences for short-term political gain.  This is a dangerous game that
poorly serves all citizens of Slovakia.  Contrary to the rhetoric of these
elements, majority-minority relations in Slovakia have improved since March.
If this atmosphere of good will can be maintained, we believe a foundation
is in place to resolve outstanding majority-minority concerns such as
language-use in schools and administrative redistricting.

In the end, of course, whatever party of parties win the next election,
Slovakia's reputation in the international community will continue to be
based in large measure by the extent to which it fulfills its international
human rights and democracy commitments."

The news release accompanied an "Update on Slovakia" surveying the
developments there since the release in 1993 of the CSCE Report on
Slovakia (available, with similar documents for the other countries
of the region, from the gopher at gopher.voa.gov).

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Subject: Re: Horn and democracy
From: Eva Durant, 
Date: 26 Jul 94 08:05:55 GMT
In article > Eva Durant,
 writes:
>>
>> Democratic impulses in Hungary have not been terribly strong
historically and
>> the last forty years made them practically nonexistent. One needs
schooling
>> in democratic principles which for somebody not immersed in it may find
>> baffling at first. I found that many of my Hungarian acquaintances
didn't
>> have much idea about the principles of democracy as practiced, for
example,
>> in the United States. If this is true about the population as a whole,
it is
>> even more so with the former ruling elite, from whose ranks, after
all, Horn
>> comes from. Eva Balogh
>
>Yes, I am baffled, too. Is it true, that 60% or less of those eligible
>feel it worthwhile to register their vote, so governments are regularily
>elected by circa 30% of voters? Eva Durant


in switzerland, the percentage of the eligible voters who actually vote
is usually in the thirties, sometimes, for very controversial issues
or elections, it might be in the forties. there is the exception of
the canton of schaffhausen, where voting is compulsory and so the
percentage is regularly in the nineties. i am unsure whether any other
canton or community has compulsory voting.

it is perhaps a comment on how truly people in switzerland believe in
democracy when there is such a low turn-out. the various attempts to
discover why this is so have generally come up with the result that the
commonly held view of those who don't participate is that it is pointless,
those in power do what they like anyway.

i interpret that as being a sign that these people at least do *not*
believe they live in a true democracy.

i have the impression that the citizens of the u.s.a. also do not
sincerely
believe that they live in a democracy. i am sure that if you asked them
directly "do you live in a democratic society?' the overwhelming majority
would respond that it lives in the quintessential democracy. yet i have
rarely heard people decry the government of the country as their enemy as
frequently as i have from citizens and residents of the u.s.a. but it is
supposed to be a democracy. the government is elected by the people.

i have difficultyt reconciling the two.


d.a.

In article > ,  writes:

>As for Hungary's neutrality. Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. If
>Hungary doesn't belong to a bloc, the country might be called
nonaligned. I
>don't think that nonalignment with NATO, on one side, and a very
uncertain
>future in Russia and Ukraine, on the other, is a viable or wise option.


why not for hungary while it seems to work for austria and switzerland?
roumania is also non-aligned in this dyad, and with hungary there would be
a contiguous belt of non-aligned/neutral countries.

why do you say that it would be viable or wise?

d.a.

Thats fine, Zoli, but they will still keep on sending their junk whether we
like it or not.

Marc

Subject: racial relationship?
From: Papa Smurf, 
Date: 26 Jul 94 14:24:55 GMT
In article > Papa Smurf,
 writes:
>Hello;
>    Since someone brought the topic of racism I thought I will ask some
>of you this questions!!!!!  How will you feel is your son/daughter
>decides to marry or just going steady with someone of a different race,
>culture, background????!!!!!!
>    I'm asking you this because my girlfriend is Hungarian's heriatge.
>She was born here in the US.  However, her parents sent her to the
>Hungarian Scout to find "hopefully" the perfect Hungarian match...
>Now, how you guys can talk about democracy, social freedom and personal
>choice if someone is been influenced so much about something as
>rational and personal as love.

i have no trouble answering you. no matter who brings you up, no matter
where you go to school or where you don't go to school, you are being
influenced, inculcated with social and cultural values. there is nothing
sinister or benevolent in that. that is just the way things are. it has
nothing to do with democracy, social freedom or the like per se. if you
receive the upbringing/education that sees these as valuable, then you may
choose to foster these.

your upbringing will also affect your taste in food, clothing, language,
etc. for example, i was brought up to dislike dirty fingernails. i see
no ratioanl reason for finding them unpleasant, but i do. it was the way
i was brought up.

so being influenced is unavoidable. at a certain stage in one's life,
and the age at which this atge is reached seems to vary greatly --- so
much so that it seems to me some people never reach this stage --- one
is faced with the choice of continuing to accept the inculcated or
ambient values, or modifying some or all of them, rejecting some or all
of them, substituting others or whatever. this may or may not meet with
the approval of one's peers, but that's life.

now in the case of choosing a mate, i am not sure whether it is not
a question of internalised social values that one feels one *must* have
a mate. maybe. i don't profess to know.

but it is perfectly usual for anyone to have wishes or desires concerning
the course of the life of one's "significant others". whether these
wishes are imposed on another is another matter. that cannot usually be
done without the complicity of the "victim".


> Yes, indeed there is such word between
>races.  If you think it's wrong to interract in such intermate
>relationship with a different races.  I will appreciate it if you
>can tell me why?  I'm willing to listen to anyone view on this!

i do not see anything wrong with mixed relationships. that does not
prevent
me from understanding the desire by any group of persons to preserve
cultural identity, cohesion.

for example a strictly religious catholic family with a child choosing to
have a non-catholic partner would be faced with a severe dilemma,
especially if the partner is unwilling to have the issue brought up in
a catholic manner.

of course the same is true of many other religions, or even social classes
or castes. the strictness of the proscription varies from case to case.

i see no problem with that.

i see nothing more sinister in what your girlfriend's family wanted or
tried to do than i would if they had tried to raise their child to be
as "american as apple pie", or if they had raised her to want to become
a medical practitioner.

i can understand, without sharing, their disappointment.

my advice to you is to try to ignore it, unless the matter is raised by
them --- i know you cannot do that, for it lurks always in the
background. just be yourself. if they cannot accpet that, then they ---
in the scheme of my values --- are not worth the effort. don't impose
your values on them or their daughter, for the same reasons as you object
to their trying impose their values on their daughter. try to understand
their culture. that alone will be a rewarding experience. if you and their
daughter are happy together, that alone will be a potent influence on
them to accept you, at least if they really care for their daughter's
happiness and well-being. if not, their daughter will get the message.


>Who wants to go on first??!
>Regards;
>Ken

d.A.

Marianna--

If you can send the e-mail addresses of Horn/Goncz/Kuncze/Fodor/Ornan/or even
Torgyan, you not only get a pound of Aniko's pogacsa, but I'll tell you which
all-night deli ("NonStop") has the best kifli and zsemle at 4 a.m.)

Marc