Charles Mikecz Vamossy > writes:

> Romania, as a NATO member, would have a great deal more to loose if its
> minority policies regress to the old ways and would be potentially
> censured or even kicked out of NATO.  While this is not a guarantee
> for improved relations, but it is certainly a great motivation for it.

While I agree with the substance of the above, a small but important
technical point needs to be made: there is no mechanism in the NATO
treaty for expelling a member of the alliance.  A member country can
withdraw from NATO under its own power, but there are no provisions
under which a country can be "kicked out of NATO".  Once you're in,
you're in.  Nevertheless, Charlie's point is perfectly valid: there are
many ways in which the disapproval of the allies can be expressed short
of outright expulsion.  Countries integrated into the North Atlantic web
of military/political/economic alliances will have a strong incentive to
stay away from the nastier sorts of repression.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

On Thu, 10 July 1997, Bela Liptak wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Some have argued that Romania's NATO membership is not in Hungary's interest
> and that our petition did not give sufficient emphasis to minority issues.
> This view is not justified:
>           The petition was supported by both HL and RL, the text of the
> petition was prepared by the Romanian Lobby and as such, its wording could
> not be changed. For that reason, I prepared a cover letter (attached) in my
> own name, which President Clinton received with the petition.
>           I agree that it is the duty of HL to always consider the interests
> of the Hungarian nation (and not only that of the state). I do believe that
> the goal of bringing the whole nation into  Europe and the goal of "relative"
> reunification through cultural autonomy and through deemphasizing of the
> importance of borders is consistent with these interests.
>          Therefore, the signers of the petition deserve our thanks.

Although I signed the petition, NATO membership for both Hungary and
Romania would not mean that tensions over the Hungarian minority in
Romania will cease forthwith.  NATO already has two members who have been
at each other's throats for decades.  Greece and Turkey became NATO
members in 1952 and have been fighting over Cyprus since its independence
from Britain.

Joe Szalai

At 07:25 AM 7/9/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Welcome to the List, Sandy.

Dear Joe, thank you for your warm welcome.  I've commented to your
questions below.

>With this kind of less-than-latent nationalism, you'd better have your
>asbestos coveralls handy because you're going to get flamed - big time!
On
>the other hand, you'll endear the looney right-wing nationalists on this
>list.  Is that what you want?

Maybe I should be more specific in my messages.  I don't mean anything
political by my comment.  I guess I view Mother Country as a metaphor for
the Hungarian people.  For that is what I love.  The passionate, loyal
strength that seems to have stayed through the centuries as part of who we
are as a 'people'.  In fact your message back to me proves my point, as you
fall into that very category!

The less-than-latent nationalist, or the looney right-wing nationalist? I'm
not either.  And I would hope that most of you who read my messages take me
at face value and don't look for hidden agenda's or veiled political
statements.

I love the Hungarian people, it's just that simple.

If I do get 'flamed', I can handle it.  I was raised in my grandmother's
boarding house with mostly Hungarian men.  I had eight Hungarian uncles who
all married Hungarian woman.  I know how to hold my own, and more
importantly, I know when to duck!!!  My Granny may not have spoken English,
or known how to read or write, but what she did know, she taught to me.  It
was the best education a young American girl could ask for!

I'm up for this challenge, Joe.  In fact it brings tears to my eyes because
I feel as if I've come home.

Thank you for your comments and warnings.

And by 'pure', I mean that which makes us human -- in all that entails.
The weakness along with the strengths.  The ability to express feelings
with honesty and not be shunned or looked down on.  The zest for life.  And
most of all the unchanging recipe for chicken soup!

Sandy

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 08:46 PM 7/8/97 +0200, "Miklos K. Hoffmann" wrote:
>
> >Joe Szalai wrote:
> >>
> >> Real wages, real income, and household incomes continue to fall in Hungary
,
>
> >i.e. socialist government
>
> It's a socialist government in name only.  But I guess that's to difficult
> for you to understand.
>
> Joe Szalai

Good guess, Joe!
But, Gabor and Amos : HE is taking the bait!!!!!!! Are your theories
falsified now?
Miklos

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 07:28 PM 7/8/97 -0400, "Amos J. Danube", responding to some idea that
> came from Gabor Fencsik's obviously limited analytical skills, wrote:
>
> <Gabor Fencsik>
> >> Whether or not he actually believes the stuff he writes, I am sure Joe
> >> means well.  He would not hurt a fly.  Not Joe.  A real pussycat, that
> >> Joe is.
>
> <Amos>
> >   Some of the most dangereous people started out this way.
>
> Amos,
>
> If you increase the level of melodrama in this particular thread you'll be
> producing pure camp.
>
> Joe Szalai
The Just must suffer...:-(((  / ;-) /
Miklos

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Dear Colleagues,

Some have argued that Romania's NATO membership is not in Hungary's interest
and that our petition did not give sufficient emphasis to minority issues.
This view is not justified:
          The petition was supported by both HL and RL, the text of the
petition was prepared by the Romanian Lobby and as such, its wording could
not be changed. For that reason, I prepared a cover letter (attached) in my
own name, which President Clinton received with the petition.
          I agree that it is the duty of HL to always consider the interests
of the Hungarian nation (and not only that of the state). I do believe that
the goal of bringing the whole nation into  Europe and the goal of "relative"
reunification through cultural autonomy and through deemphasizing of the
importance of borders is consistent with these interests.
         Therefore, the signers of the petition deserve our thanks.

Best regards: Bela Liptak
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
The Honorable Bill Clinton
President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
















                                                                         July
1, 1997

RE: Hungarian Lobby supports Romania's admission into NATO

Dear Mr. President,

Ours is a grass roots group of a few thousand professionals around the world,
who are connected by the Internet and share an interest in the future of
Central Europe in general and in the future of the Hungarian nation in
particular. I am the founder of this group, an adjunct professor at Yale.
           Mr. President, you will find attached a petition, in which the
signers ask for your support of Romania's admission into NATO. We ask this
for two reasons:
         1) As 20% of the Hungarian nation lives in the state of Romania, we
have a selfish interest in making sure that all Hungarians "enter Europe."
         2) We ask for this also, because only the European standards of
minority rights can guarantee the long term survival of the Hungarian
churches and schools in Romania.
          Mr. President, it is also in the interest of the United states to
admit Romania, because by so doing, all NATO members will either border on or
have sea access to the other NATO members.
          Lastly, I would respectfully ask, that in connection with the NATO
expansion process, you curb the influence of the arms industry. The new NATO
members should feel more secure and therefore should have less incentive to
spend money on arms and more on their infrastructure, which is critical to
their growth and stability.

Respectfully yours,
Bela G. Liptak



cc: Vice President Al Gore
      Secretary of State Madeleine Albright
      Senators Christopher Dodd, Joseph Lieberman, Dennis DeConcini,
       Frank Lautenberg, Patrick Moynihan, Alfonse D'Amato, Robert Torricelli
      Congressman Christopher Shays and Congressman Tom Lantos

Dear Peter,

Charlie Fenyvesi is an old friend of mine from the 1956 MEFESZ days, a good
friend of HL, one who does not say much on the list, but one who does a lot.
He is also an influential senior editor at US News and World Report.

His position is, (what used to be th "Hungarian position" in 1956), namely
that our goal is a NEUTRAL Hungary, which we do not want to belong to any
military camp, but to a neutral Danubean Confederation, which has open
borders to all seven of our neighbors. (Hungary is the only nation on this
planet, which on all her seven sides borders on herself). He also believes,
that it is in the interest of the armament manufacturers and not of Hungary
to double (or more) the present military budget of Hungary, (which today is
only $0.8 billion/year) as the admittance fee for NATO.

This is not to say, that in my view Charlie is right and you are wrong!

What I am saying is that we should feel free to attack the views which we
disagree with, but we should show respect for the individulas who holds them,
because that is the only guarantee of receiving the same respect, when people
disagree with our views and one of the goal of HL is to provide a forum for
civilised discussion of complex issues.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Hi ... again, Joe!

Ok ... how about a truce ha?  Sides .... you might not have noticed, but I
was playing the devil's advocate with your choice of word utilization ....
that's all.  As for economy, the effects/causes of inflation - am
adequately in tune, really.
Best, Aniko

At 07:25 AM 7/9/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>On
>the other hand, you'll endear the looney right-wing nationalists on this
>list.  Is that what you want?

        I don't think that this is going to be too dangerous because I can
think of only one looney right-wing nationalist on this list. Can you think
of too many more?  On the other hand, we have a couple of looney communists. ES
B

At 07:12 AM 7/9/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 08:46 PM 7/8/97 +0200, "Miklos K. Hoffmann" wrote:
>
>>Joe Szalai wrote:
>>>
>>> Real wages, real income, and household incomes continue to fall in Hungary,
>
>>i.e. socialist government
>
>It's a socialist government in name only.  But I guess that's to difficult
>for you to understand.

        I know!! It is terribly difficult for most of us to understand (;))
But you understand it perfectly! ESB

At 11:25 AM 7/9/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Aniko, do you have a mental block when it comes to common sense economics?
<snip>
>I'm at a loss to explain such basic economics to you.

         I didn't follow the thread well enough to know what's up, but I'll
tell you something, Joe. Your trying to explain economics to anyone is a
joke! ESB

At 10:44 AM 7/10/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>Although I signed the petition, NATO membership for both Hungary and
>Romania would not mean that tensions over the Hungarian minority in
>Romania will cease forthwith.  NATO already has two members who have been
>at each other's throats for decades.  Greece and Turkey became NATO
>members in 1952 and have been fighting over Cyprus since its independence
>from Britain.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

Romania, as a NATO member, would have a great deal more to loose if its
minority policies regress to the old ways and would be potentially censured
or even kicked out of NATO.  While this is not a guarantee for improved
relations, but it is certainly a great motivation for it.  Similarily, EU
membership is also an important benefit.  Romania, fortunately, has
recognized this, while Slovakia is still out there somewhere in the
geopolitical wilderness.

I think it is very much in Hungary's and the Hungarian minorities interest
to help its neighbors become NATO and EU members.  Only by joining the club
can we expect them to behave like gentlemen.  BTW, we, Hungarians are also
expected to do the same...

As far as Romanian-Hungarian relations on a personal level are concerned,
I'd like to think Arpad Goncz was right when at a recent dinner in New York
told us that his recent visit to Marosvasarhely convinced him that the
animosity between us was largely fueleby politicians for their own benefit.
 I think the problems are deeper than that, but let's hope they are solvable.

regards from New York


Charlie Vamossy

You wrote:
>Romania would not mean that tensions over the Hungarian minority in
>Romania will cease forthwith.  NATO already has two members who have been
>at each other's throats for decades.  Greece and Turkey became NATO
>members in 1952 and have been fighting over Cyprus since its independence
>from Britain.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
I agree with you. About the best thing I heard is that NATO had prevented
these two countries from going to war. My guess is that Turkey was invited
into NATO largely because of its geographical position: control of the
Bosporus, plus air bases and radar sites. The EU on the other hand has no
such things to consider and Turkey so far has not been allowed, partly
because of its Kudish minority policies. In the long run the EU is a far
better organization to monitor and remedy minority oppression.  Andy.