At 10:23 PM 6/4/96, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 10:00 AM 6/5/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:
>
>>So much about your 'proof'.  More important is the fact that definitions
>>of rebellion emphasize ORGANIZED action.  1956 was not an organized action,
>>it was a spontaneous popular action.  As for revolution, the key to the
>>meaning is the OVERTHROW of a regime (it's better not to burden you with the
>>etymology of the word), something that did happen in 1956.
>
>Regimes are overthrown all the time.  Why are they not called revolutions?
>What was so unique about the Hungarian Revolution that made it a revolution?
>Overthrowing a regime for a couple of weeks does not sound like a revolution
>to me.  It sounds like a failed popular uprising.
>
>You know, I'm content to call the events of October/November 1956 the
>Hungarian Revolution, because that's what it's called, but lets not get
>sucked in by the mythology.  Nothing revolutionary happened in Hungary in '56.
>
>Joe Szalai

The events in Hungary in 1956 should be called a revolution because
1. the revolutionaries in Budapest forced the formation of a new type of
government which was no longer responsible to Moscow;
2. the communist party lost its monopoly of power;
3. the state of Hungary removed itself from the soviet orbit;
4. the old regime was overthrown;
5. the workers began to change the economy from state socialism to
cooperative ownership;
6. a liberal-democracy was in the making from November 1, 1956 - a
revolutionary change from party dictatorship.



Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

>In his homily, the cardinal recalled the 1,100 years of Hungarian history,
>emphasizing the contributions of the founding Arpad dynasty in the spreading
>of Christianity in the region.

I for one do not so readily welcome the return of undisputable Christian
hegemony over Hungary, exposing in modern-day Magyarorszag one the most
tragic and regrettable aspects of our culture that is better left dead --
antisemitism.

As I recall, the "spreading of Christianity in the region" was not as
honest, painless, and bloodless as the good Cardinal would have us believe.

Sven
Francophone Wonderboy Extraordinaire Marinated in Clam Sauce

"Mama always said you can't put ten pounds of potatoes into a five pound sack"
-Dolly Parton, on stage, after her "support" broke

Sven Koppany writes:

> >In his homily, the cardinal recalled the 1,100 years of Hungarian
history,
> >emphasizing the contributions of the founding Arpad dynasty in the
spreading
> >of Christianity in the region.

> I for one do not so readily welcome the return of undisputable Christian
> hegemony over Hungary, exposing in modern-day Magyarorszag one the most
> tragic and regrettable aspects of our culture that is better left dead --
> antisemitism.

Now wait a minute. I am as tolerant of others as anyone else. But I object
to equating the spreading of christianity with antisemitism. This just does
not hold water regardless of what religion we are talking about. One cannot
equate a Jewish service and celebrating the longevity of the Jewish
religion as an example commemorating the founding of Israel with
antimohamedanism. So why bring up antisemitism in this context?
Let's fight antisemitism or any basless anti this or that in its
appropriate context and do not demean that fight by bringing up imagenary
relationships.

> As I recall, the "spreading of Christianity in the region" was not as
> honest, painless, and bloodless as the good Cardinal would have us
believe.

It certainly was not. Neither was the spread of almost  any and all
religions in their various historical past, or as an example in Bosnia at
even at the present.

Now if you brought up some concern about the issue as a descendent of
Koppany, I could see the reason for some sour grapes. Quartering may be the
ultimate divide and conquer process. But the House of Arpad is extinct for
some time although some Koppanys who were related to them are apparently
still around.

I think your connotation has more potatoes, than the sack can hold.

I hope that all religions of Hungary will celebrate that in good or bad the
nation has survived in spite of the sorrowfully uneven treatments of each
other in the past.

Regards,Jeliko.

Could someone give me an idea of how common the surname "Hodas" is in Hungary
please?  Particularly Budapest?  Thank you for any answers...Pamela

> >In his homily, the cardinal recalled the 1,100 years of Hungarian history,
> >emphasizing the contributions of the founding Arpad dynasty in the spreading
> >of Christianity in the region.

Sven Koppany wrote:

> I for one do not so readily welcome the return of undisputable Christian
> hegemony over Hungary, exposing in modern-day Magyarorszag one the most
> tragic and regrettable aspects of our culture that is better left dead --
> antisemitism.

Hold your horses.  This is going a bit far just on the basis of a reporting
on a mass for expatriate Hungarians in the US.

There is no return of undisputable Christian hegemony over Hungary.  There
is a revival of religions (and a spectacular percentage growth in non-
traditional churches, sects and religions from a zero basis) but Hungarians
in Hungary are not as pliant as you may think.  Leaders of the traditional
churches have made ambit claims for souls and property since the fall of
Communism, but they were much more successful in the latter.  It was no
hanging offence to attend church services under the consolidated Kadar
regime, evidenced by the futile railing against church-going Party members
who have their children baptized.  Hence, there were few truly faithful who
had to wait until the change in regime to practise open worship.  There are
also indications that the hastily overstated demands for socially conservative
policies by the churches (e.g., in abortion) have produced a political backlash
.

Besides, as Jeliko has already pointed it out, equating Christian sentiments
with anti-Semitism is unsupportable and offensive.

> As I recall, the "spreading of Christianity in the region" was not as
> honest, painless, and bloodless as the good Cardinal would have us believe.

What is honest ?  It was the first documented case of Hungarian Realpolitik,
and one that has been fully justified by history.  Of course, it was not
painless and bloodless, but the alternative (defending a bulwark of shamanism
in the middle of aggressively proselytizing Europe) is likely to have been
much more painful and bloody.  More than that: it would have been eventually
futile and compromising the survival of the Hungarian nation.

Sorry, but Koppany was politically wrong, however dedicated he may have been
in his adherence to conservative Magyar ideas.  It is a shame that today's
Hungarian conservatives do not pay him, the first documented Magyar
conservative, due homily, and worship the social revolutionary Stephen instead.
I know, it is the pervasive influence of the Church again ;-).

George Antony

>> I for one do not so readily welcome the return of undisputable Christian
>> hegemony over Hungary, exposing in modern-day Magyarorszag one the most
>> tragic and regrettable aspects of our culture that is better left dead --
>> antisemitism.
>
>Now if you brought up some concern about the issue as a descendent of
>Koppany, I could see the reason for some sour grapes. Quartering may be the
>ultimate divide and conquer process. But the House of Arpad is extinct for
>some time although some Koppanys who were related to them are apparently
>still around.

whilst i realise your need to equate my ideas with millenia-old ancestral
rite squabbles in order to cover for the gaping lack of substance in your
own retort, i must disappoint you with my firm assurance that my point of
view would be retained regardless of surname.

with that said:

>Now wait a minute. I am as tolerant of others as anyone else. But I object
>to equating the spreading of christianity with antisemitism. One cannot
>equate a Jewish service and celebrating the longevity of the Jewish
>religion as an example commemorating the founding of Israel with
>antimohamedanism.
>Let's fight antisemitism in its
>appropriate context and do not demean that fight by bringing up imagenary
>relationships.

first, had you taken to time to read my posting rather than quickly issuing
a poorly disguised attempt at avoiding the issue, and judging from your
peripheral urgings for a less factionalised Hungary (bridging on delightful
idealistic Utopianism), perhaps you would find yourself agreeing with me on
some levels.

you utterly failed to grasp the central focus of my criticism for the St.
Patrick spectacle, for whose genre's omnipresence in modern Hungarian
society, rather than it's isolation in NYC, causes my desire for protest
and invitation of discussion.  i am voicing opposition to the rise of
Christian hegemony in modern Hungarian culture and politics, which i
believe is encouraged with every glorification of the past method of
spreading Christianity throughout Hungary, which, indeed, bread not only
antisemitism, but all those other "anti's" you claim your own opposition
to.

this by no means is a claim that peaceful proselytisation and/or voluntary
conversion to Christianity carries antisemitic luggage thereby (although
i'm sure i could drum up an argument for that also).  opposition to
Christian hegemony in cultural and political realms is also by no means a
comment on the integrity of the religion itself.

however, in your reply, you graciously confirmed my statement that this
past method of spreading Christianity throughout Hungary involved too much
intolerance, pain and bloodshed for a civilised nation to have proudly
written in it's annals of history.  it is the glorification of this
specific and unhappy era against which i must protest, an era whose legacy
i believe acts as a rally-cry for the proliferation of discriminatory
attitudes within modern Hungary, forcing us to unnecessarily repeat
history.

it is my observation that with the rise of the HDF and their "torpe
kisebbseg" (i am grateful for the current political backlash against them,
btw), skinheads of the neo-nazi variety, and a non-inclusive nationalism
based on white skin and Christian faith in Hungary, Hungary is dangerously
close to reverting back to a country that does not welcome all Hungarians.
i find evidence for this in our reinstatement of a blatantly Christian coat
of arms, which officially wraps our country's history and culture into a
condensed sheet of steel or a bumper sticker.  surely, one cannot expect
jewish hungarians, nor cigany hungarians, who are just as magyar as Istvan
Kiraly (as far as i'm concerned), to feel full equity and representation
under such a symbol.  Jewish-magyar friends of mine living in a small
village outside Kalocsa, as well as those living in the larger city of
Szeged, assure me that the discrimination they feel in Hungary has not
reached levels comparable to Poland or Russia, but nevertheless, they
universally feel untrusted by their neighbours, and that they are viewed as
"outsiders" across the board.  that concerns me.

in closing, i am not talking about a territorial dispute such as erupts on
occasion in Israel, nor am i speaking of "imaginary" historical pogroms and
massacres.  rather, i am talking about a millenia-old problem that we
Hungarians haven't seemed to have the guts to deal with yet.  this problem,
and it's manifestation in the era surrounding the forced introduction of
Christianity into Hungary, are very real.  the same church that is
responsible for organising and/or tacitly approving of the pogroms of the
past has now glorified a blood-stained section of our history better left
closed.  i find this a perfect opportunity for us to realise the endurance
into modern times of those same attitudes that allowed us to massacre each
other 1000 years ago, and hopefully offer real solutions, so that we might
avoid a repitition of history.

so i'm curious, jeliko - what are your solutions?  ..and what are your own
observations of my premise within Hungary today?

Sven Koppany


-- Get off that cross, honey.  Someone needs the wood --
-Dolly Parton

Since no one mentioned this here yet, only the guilty on this list may be
aware of the sneaky and dishonest action resulting in Peter Nemenyi (NPA)
losing not only his internet privileges, but his job as well.

Regular readers of this list will recall the vicious attacks against him a
few weeks ago on the occasion of someone digging out from the FORUM archives
a two-year-old post of his.  He was accused of being an antisemite, and
berated for using a <.gov> internet account.  An eager member of this list
translated the post to English, and ominous threats were uttered against him.

To their eternal shame, some people -- probably from the ranks of the
stalwart defenders of political correctness on this list -- denounced him to
his employers.  A long list of charges were leveled against him, including
antisemitism and pornography, as well as using his internet account for
private purposes, resulting in his dismissal.

Those of us who remember the years of communist oppression, such
denunciations are frighteningly familiar.  But it is shocking that it can
happen in a free and democratic country where it is customary for the accused
to be allowed to face his accuser.  Furthermore it is sad that there are
people here who, when tiring of debating issues on their merit, resort to
such means to shut up their opponent.  The actions of some(one) from among us
casts a shadow on all of us.

I understand that some people, properly enraged by the outrageous behavior of
the nameless accusers, have initiated steps to identify the culprit(s).

If the accuser(s) have any sense of honor left, they should come out into the
open and defend their actions if they can.  Otherwise, when they are found
out, no one will listen to their excuses.

Ferenc

>There is no return of undisputable Christian hegemony over Hungary.  There
>is a revival of religions (and a spectacular percentage growth in non-
>traditional churches, sects and religions from a zero basis) but Hungarians
>in Hungary are not as pliant as you may think.  Leaders of the traditional
>churches have made ambit claims for souls and property since the fall of
>Communism, but they were much more successful in the latter.
>There are
>also indications that the hastily overstated demands for socially conservative
>policies by the churches (e.g., in abortion) have produced a political
>backlash.

i am grateful for your opinion and your optimistic view of the current
situation in Hungary, and while i am fully aware of the mentioned political
backlashes against conservative policies and the slow subsiding of
antisemitism coinciding with economic improvement in the country, i am also
aware that xenophobia is still a nagging problem in Hungary.  dark skinned
students are still harrassed by police, cigany are still economically
disenfranchised and there are still plenty of neo-nazi's to go around.

>Besides, as Jeliko has already pointed it out, equating Christian sentiments
>with anti-Semitism is unsupportable and offensive.

reference my previous post

>and one that has been fully justified by history.

...and what a glorious history that is :-)

>the alternative (defending a bulwark of shamanism
>in the middle of aggressively proselytizing Europe) is likely to have been
>much more painful and bloody.  More than that: it would have been eventually
>futile and compromising the survival of the Hungarian nation.

perhaps, but historical revisionism was never a talent of mine
nevertheless, were i to accept that a bloody conversion to an undevelopped
religion was a political necessity, i still maintain that this era in
history need not be elevated to a revering pedestal, as this Mass did.  as
my mother would say: "that's downright tacky"

**bows, courtseys, and exits stage left**

-Sven
-Francophone Socialist Wonderboy (goes great with pasta)

Sven (?) wrote:

> i am grateful for your opinion and your optimistic view of the current
> situation in Hungary, and while i am fully aware of the mentioned political
> backlashes against conservative policies and the slow subsiding of
> antisemitism coinciding with economic improvement in the country,

I am not so sure about this economic improvement.

However, the economy has very limited bearing on the state of anti-Semitism,
unless things start going really badly and one needs a scapegoat.  Rather,
the current situation in Hungary is a reflection of the sudden scope that
opened to public manifestations of anti-Semitic views after the change of
regimes, followed by a process of marginalization for those mouthing such
views.

> i am also
> aware that xenophobia is still a nagging problem in Hungary.  dark skinned
> students are still harrassed by police, cigany are still economically
> disenfranchised and there are still plenty of neo-nazi's to go around.

Indeed, but blaming Christians collectively for this is not correct, to say
the least.  If anything, the newly re-established religious charities offer
help to the economically disenfranchised, including Gypsies, that was not
available before.

As for the behaviour of the police and neo-Nazis, neither of them are typical
Christian groups.

>[ on the conversion of Hungarians to Christianity: ]
> nevertheless, were i to accept that a bloody conversion to an undevelopped
> religion was a political necessity, i still maintain that this era in
> history need not be elevated to a revering pedestal, as this Mass did.  as
> my mother would say: "that's downright tacky"

What is this "undevelopped" religion bit ?  What is your definition of a
"developed" religion and why is it better than an "undeveloped" one ?

Apart from that, I think that Christian conversion reflected well on Stephen's
wisdom as a statesman and was in the interest of the nation, quite independent
from one's faith or otherwise in the tenets of Christianity.  As such, that
era in history deserves to be elevated to a revering pedestal in my view.
I think that your opposite opinion does not concur with the sentiments of
most Hungarians.

George Antony