No point in being obusive, that makes people suspect
your arguments.    I'd rather if you don't
overlook the other points made, such as giving some
credence to the still healthy arm-expenditure,
oh so necessary to prop up the ailing US recovery,
and more and more difficult to justify.




>
> Your line of anti-American bullshit's no more convincing than the one I
> was originally responding to. You don't have the first clue about why
> America is getting into Bosnia.You could, for instance, explain how
> intervention in Bosnia is going to help anyone get re-elected when 6 out
> of 10 Americans oppose the Bosnia mission.
>
>  What puzzles me is your obvious enthusiasm for parading your ignorance in
> front of a worldwide audience. If I could offer you some advice, it would
> be Abraham Lincoln's recommendation that it's better to keep one's mouth
> shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
>
> G'day, mate.
>
> Sam Stowe

In article >, "Peter I. Hidas"
> writes:

>>Hello all,
>>I've been browsing the list and wonder if anyone can give me the names
>>of secondary works in English which deal with Hungary during the so
>>called "dark ages". I'd like to find out more on the Avars and the
>>Magyars in Hungary -- I would especially like to see illustrated works
>>which show artifacts from museums or archaeological sites if possible.
>>                                        Thank You
>>                                         Paul Gregor
>>                                          

I am not to sure if this will help at all, but there used to be a
publication called the Eighth Tribe, although that was many years ago that
my mother recieved this publication.  The information in the monthly works
is invaluable,  Good luck and if you find it is still in publication let
me know please.
Sincerely,
EricG.

I don't think anyone claimed to be America-haters.
There was talk about the usually suspect motives
behind US foreign policy and military interventions.
The hate is exactly what you are trying to spread,
by calling people with different views evil.

Your jingoistic going-on about heroic US saving the world
doesn't alter the fact, that U.K. was allowed to fight alone
for a long time; that had the USSR  not overcome eventually Hitler's
attack, or had the event of Pearl Harbour not happened,
 US would have waited with the saving of the world a wee
bit longer. Making money out of the war was much more
profitable, and that was the real gain for the US, not to
mention taking over the markets of the fading world-powers.
Yes, a lot of American soldiers were sent to their death,
and it is the same horrid waste as the British or the then
soviet people.  It was all the product of good old fashioned
capitalist competition and militarism, just  what is so whole-heartedly
encouraged by you.

Eva, the Evil One.




>
> After reading Jeliko's well-reasoned response to Csaba's flame-bait, a
> couple of thoughts struck me.
>
> First of all, have you noticed how anti-American rhetoric is in inverse
> proportion to the poster's likelihood of ever needing American troops to
> haul his or her chestnuts out of the fire if the local geopolitical
> neighborhood bully gets out of hand? I don't think it's coincidental that
> some of the more knuckleheaded reactions on this group to America's
> intervention in Bosnia have come from places like Britain and Australia.
> Csaba fulminates against America and suggests I read up on Trianon
> (translation: accept his version of Hungarian history at face value). But
> he does so from the comfort and safety of a home in Australia. About 50
> years ago, a lot of very young boys from the United States died miserable,
> squalid deaths in places like the Coral Sea, New Guinea and Guadalcanal to
> make it possible for Aussies like Csaba to live like they do today.
>
> Americans learned a long, long time ago never to expect any thanks from
> ingrates like Csaba. But things definitely could be worse for him. He
> could be slave labor on a Mitsubishi intercontinental ballistic missile
> assembly line right now, giving his all for the maintenance of the Greater
> East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere and dodging drunken, murderous Kempeitai
> on the way home each night.
>
> Second, notice how the America haters aren't able to really quantify
> what's so evil about America? As far as I can tell, our major crime
> against humanity from these folks' perspective is making stars out of
> Michael Jackson and Roseanne Barr/Arnold/Whatever and inflicting them on
> other cultures. Now, admittedly, that's not the kind of thing one usually
> does to people one considers friends. But is it really as evil as, say,
> murdering several million people in death camps, like the Nazis? Or
> emptying a city of every resident, forcing them to march into the
> countryside and starve to death, like the Khmer Rouge? Or promoting a
> cultural revolution through the slaughter of millions of peasants, like
> the Red Chinese? Csaba and his anti-American buddies, to cop someone
> else's phrase, apparently know the cost of everything and the value of
> nothing, at least when it comes to human suffering.
>
> I've been fortunate enough in recent years to listen firsthand to the
> stories of survivors of some of this stuff -- a Polish Jew who survived
> Auschwitz and an American who survived the Bataan Death March and four
> years of captivity in Japan. I've also listened intently to Dr. Liptak's
> recent account of the 1956 Revolution (sorry if you don't like that term,
> but it's the most widespread one among most Westerners) in Hungary (Saved
> every one of them, too, so my fifteen year-old son can read a first-hand
> account of what happened). Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who himself died at the
> hands of the Nazi insanity, said that the more we learn and the more we
> understand, the less provisional excuse we have for avoiding the painful
> process of confronting evil (Of course, he said it a lot more eloquently).
> America haters like Csaba will be the first to indulge in some
> self-adulation, seeing themselves as Bonhoeffer's heirs and battling the
> biggest evil of them all. They're not. In fact, they're the last people on
> earth who should try to provide any kind of public guidance on what's evil
> on a geopolitical scale. They can't even see it staring back at them from
> the mirror each morning as they're getting dressed.
>
> Sam Stowe

Dear Colleagues,

I like to thank all of you who asked their representatives to write to
President Kovac to protest the Slovakian language law. Today we are asking
our political leaders to write to President Iliescu of Romania. We ask our
President, Senators,  Congressman to support the demands of the demonstrators
in Sepsiszentgyorgy (Sfantu Gheorghe). In order to minimize the demand on
your time in sending fax or E-Mail letters to your political representatives,
please find attached a letter format, which can be "individualized", by
inserting your own data in the lines which are typed in capital letters. For
your information I included only a few E-mail and fax numbers. If you need
more (for your local representatives, senators or media) please send me a
note.


LIST OF ADDRESSES:
President Bill Clinton:   fax: 202-456-2461
VP Al Gore:   fax:202-973-2600
Senator Robert Dole: fax: 202-228-1249
Congressman Newton Gingrich:  fax: 404-565-6398


THE INDIVIDUALIZED FORM LETTER:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The Honorable ....

Dear ....

I am (A MEMBER, OFFICER, PRESIDENT ETC. OF XYZ ORGANIZATION, CHURCH,
COMPANY...). Similarly to the 1.5 million American voters of Hungarian
origin, I too
am concerned about the oppression of Hungarian minorities in Romania. I am
particularly concerned about the new language law which would destroy the 500
years old Hungarian school system in Transylvania. I am concerned that the
church  property of the Hungarian National Community, which was confiscated
by the Communists, has still not been returned. It includes 1,041 schools, 28
boarding schools, 20 teachers residences, 16 hospitals and orphanages, 126
priests' houses and 70 convents.

Dear Mr. (PRESIDENT,  SENATOR, CONGRESSMAN...) I would like to learn your
views on this matter and the steps you might take to help alleviate the
suffering of the Hungarian national community in Romania. There is no more
basic human right, than the right to speak one's mother tongue, to maintain
one's religion and culture and the civilized world should not allow that
basic right to be denied.

I know, that a letter from you to President Iliescu sent through the
Ambassador of Romania would help to change this situation.

Because the Hungarian-American voters would like to consider such issues as
this one in deciding which candidate to support in the 1996 elections, I
would like to ask for your permission to publish your response, if any, to
this letter, in the Hungarian-American press and media.

Respectfully yours,



YOUR NAME, ADDRESS,TITLE

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

PLEASE DO FIND TIME TO SEND THIS LETTER! THE DEMONSTRATION ARE OCCURING NOW,
OUR HELP IS NEEDED NOW, NOT AFTER WE HAVE FINISHED OUR CHRISTMAS SHOPPING!
          Please ask your priests, pastors, rabbis, scout and society leaders
to have a letter of this nature signed by all parishioners or participants
and fax them to your representatives. (If you do not have the fax numbers, I
can provide them).

Best regards and Happy Holydays: Bela Liptak

Louis, ThaNKS YOU FOR TRYING TO HELP ME LOCATE  the town where my grandfather
was born. On a censusdocument from Hegyi in Upper Hungary in 1869, it
indicates that my grandfather was born in VECS in 1854. I know that at some
point JAKAB STERN moved to BEKESCSABA where he was a traveling wine salesman,
and then moved to Budapest where he married my grandmother, Helene Roth in
1883. Any additional help in tracing the STERNS or ROTHS will be appreciated.
Thanks,  Bob Stern

This is a popular Hungarian proverb (az alma nem esik messze a faja-
tol), expressing a propensity of sons to be alike their parents. I
stress that it is *not* my saying and I am *not* trying to prove the
point - I only provide some material to ponder the above popular wisdom.

Ivan Peto, head of ruling liberal party SZDSZ of today, should certainly
*not* be judged (let alone punished) for his father's doing while he was
a lieutenant-colonel of the Hungarian KGB (AVH) and later commander of
Kadar's similarly bloodstained Workers' Militia. Apparently, there is no
need to turn to his father for extremely damaging evidence on him, since
Ivan Peto himself (the son) did some pretty aweful things just a few
years ago, according to whistle-blower Jeno Istvan SZATMARI (and his
wittnesses).

Hungarians know that Antall's first freely elected government was
almost done-in just a few months after it came to power, by an attempted
coup d'etat using physical violence. While even when it occurred, it
was widely assumed that liberal party SZDSZ, that took defeat in free
election as an extremely sour looser, was the organizer of the attempted
coup d'etat, liberal politicians and their hired pen maintained their
total "innocence" in this so-called "Taxi-blocade" (the use of physical
force by taxi drivers to block traffic and thus bring the government
down by paralyzing all vital activities). Liberal media even tried to
placate the "extreme right" (a total misnomer, as the patriotic parties
are neither extreme nor are on the right, some even call them "extreme
left"), by accusing them that they concocted a "fairy tale" of the
SZDSZ-organized coup d'etat.

However, one of the "hired pen" propagandists himself, Jeno Istvan
SZATMARI of Jewish descent, was so feed up with the rotten lies of
extremist liberals that he turned on them this summer, and published
a "tell all book", a true bestseller. In his book, disseminated also
over Internet (see e.g. Dec. 8th issue of "Nemzet"; subs.nemzet@
siliconvalley.com), special attention is given to what amounts to
a proof according to Jeno Szatmari (also by another eye-wittness Peter
Szegvari whom he names), that

(1) Ivan Peto as SZDSZ-head was an organizer and leader of the illegal
coup d'etat of "Taxi-blocade"
(2) Ivan Peto and his hired pen propagandists blatantly lied to cover
up his illegal activity.

In Ivan Peto's father's times, such "innocent mistakes" quickly led to
execution of those who were "deemed" (not even "found") guilty of
using physical violence to overthrow the government. Lucky son, Ivan
Peto, got away with everything, not even an *investigation* has
happened in his case so far.

It is also rather revealing for the saying "apples don't fall far from
their trees" how adamantly some "hired pen" of SZDSZ maintained, even
as recently as this January, the assertion of "innocence" of SZDSZ,
although eye-wittnesses are coming out from the woodwork as the ship
of liberalism sinks also in Hungary.

Flora FENCSIK is quoted in Szatmari's book, by facsimile of her article
in January 25 1995, as follows:

[FACSIMILE a Szatmari-konyv 246 oldalan: Fencsik Flora Nepszabadsag cikke
Hegyi Gyula 1995 jan 25 (Nepszabadsagban megjelent) irasara valaszolva]

---
"A PUBLICISTA JO HIRE
        Elkepedve olvastam, mikent osszegzi a januar 25-i Nepszabadsag-
cikkeben az elmult ot ev allitolagos tanulsagait Hegyi Gyula. Idemasolom
a cikk KURZIV betukkel hangsulyozott reszletet: "AZ SZDSZ 1989-BEN
KIHATRALT A KEREKASZTALTOL, 1990 TAVASZAN AZ MDF-SZDSZ PAKTUMMAL
KIJATSZOTTA ELLENZEKI PARTNEREIT, 1990 OSZEN A TAXISBLOKAD IDEJEN
PARLAMENTEN KIVULI EROKET IS TAMOGATOTT AZ MDF-KORMANY ELLENEBEN, 1994
NYARAN FELADTA A LIBERALIS SZOVETSEGET."
        Mindez nem holmi mult szazadi esemenysor leirasa, hanem kozvetlen
kozelmultunke - sok millio felnott polgartarsammal egyutt eltuk at, ami
tortent. Vegyuk sorra....
        Harom: Taxisblokad. Nem hiszek a szememnek. Hegyi Gyula is a
szelsojobb szokott dajkamesejet ismetli, amely szerint a blokad a
szabaddemokratak machinacioja volt? Hogy csak futtyenteniok kellett, s a
fuvarosok egy emberkent engedelmeskedtek, es megbenitottak az orszagot? ..
        ...Hegyi Gyula cikkenek cime: "A miniszterelnok jo hire".
Szandekosan nem a cimben is jelzett fo temajahoz szoltam hozza... Nyilvan
Hegyi Gyula se vette volna jo neven, ha igy oktatjak ki: "egyes ujsagirok
durva es nemtelen eszkozokkel igyekeznek lejaratni Magyarorszag
miniszterelnoket"...

FENCSIK FLORA
mufordito, koziro"

[In brief:]
[FENCSIK FLORA, "translator, publicist" publicly denies accusation
by Gyula Hegyi that SZDSZ organized the "Taxi blocade". She says she
"can't believe her eyes seeing the fairy tale of extreme right that
SZDSZ engineered the blocade"]
---

Szatmari, on facing page of the facsimile of Flora FENCSIK's article,
writes the following:

"Hegyi Gyula januar 25-en cikket mer irni a Nepszabiban az SZDSZ
ketszinusegerol es ellehetetlenuleserol. Nemsokara Fencsik Flora,
aki valaha kituno ujsagiro es mufordito volt, nagyon szerettem, de
ujabban (?) a Merleg utca egyik elso szamu bertollnoka; megkont-
razza mindezt ugyancsak a Nepszabadsagban. Egyik fo erve: "Ta-
xisblokad. Nem hiszek a szememnek. Hegyi Gyula is a szelsojobb
szokott dajkamesejet ismetli, amely szerint a blokad a szabadde-
mokratak machinacioja volt?" Es igy tovabb, ebben a stilusban.
Kozben Kende hozza a hirt: Hegyit megfenyegettek. "Kepviselo
meg lehetsz harom evig - mondtak neki -, de az utana kovetkezo
huszban ujsagiro Magyarorszagon aligha...Most mar nagyon cvider
vagyok, es megkerdem Reveszt: valaszoljak, nyiltan, newel? Es
bizonyitsam; hogy igenis a Merleg utcabol iranyitottak radion a
blokadokat? Hiszen ott voltam, az egesz mar csak azon mulik, hogy
Szegvari Peter, a volt vb-titkar is hajlando-e tanusitani, vele pedig
nyilvan lehet beszelni...
  Merlegel, latolgat, azutan dont: nem aktualis. Most nem eri meg,
hogy nevvel leleplezd magad. . .
  Tudomasul veszem, ha nem is vagyok tul boldog tole..."

[Szatmari comments that Flora FENCSIK used to be one of his favorite
journalist and translator, but lately (?) she turned into "number
one hired pen" of liberal party SZDSZ. Prompted by her article,
maintaining "innocence" of SZDSZ in Taxi-blocade, Szatmari and his
MSZP (socialist) confidents pondered the wisdom of coming out at
this time with eyewittness-evidence that Ivan Peto commandered
the Taxi-blocade over cellular phone from his office. On page 43
of Szatmari's book an entire cellular-phone conversation of Ivan
Peto with blocade-commanders are printed that both Szatmari and
Szegvar wittnessed. To the dismay of Szatmari, MSZP (social) party
finds it immature to open up this case -- but leaves no doubt that
MSZP may well decide to do so when SZDSZ is no longer in the ruling
coalition.]

Whether FENCSIK and PETO are co-conspirators in what civilized countries
would brand as an attempt to overthrow government by force and covering
up by purposefully untruthful reporting is, at this point, an accusation
that Jeno Szatmari implies. Yes, it is totally in line with the general
assumption that SZDSZ both as a looser of the elections in 1990 and
the minor coalition partner of communists after the 1994 elections
is so over-aggressive and over-eager that turns off even a good chunck
of its own power-base, especially those "little Jews" represented by
Szatmari, who are truly fearful of a backlash agains THEM (since the
bigwigs will flee with their loot). Given the existence of wittnesses
who already came forward and the extreme social tension because of
a potential severe backlash, however, IMHO the case certainly warrants
at least an INVESTIGATION.

In view of cover-up and whitewashing, however, that the ORIGINAL KGB
(AVH) high-ranking officers enjoyed so far (with NOT A SINGLE ONE
punished for their crimes!) it is not likely that justice will come
while sons are in power to protect their guilty parents. Their cover-
up, though pitiful, is humanly understandable, and they certainly have
the right not only to take the fifth for themselves but also to try
to save their parents as much as possible.

But there are limits.
(1) In their defense of relatives, no crimes, violations and purposeful
misrepresentations may occur and in particular untruthful lies *must* be
avoided, lest the defender becomes co-conspirator and guilty on his own
right.
(2) They must understand that their (false?) identification with their
guilty parents may cause severe identity crises with glaring manifesta-
tions, that observers find pitiful at the least but highly offensive in
cases when insult comes after injury.

Dear fellow Hungary-listers,

I just came back from Nagyvaarad (which explains my silence), where I was
given a little booklet (hot off the press) published by the RMDSZ.  The
title of the booklet is _Jussunkat Koeveteljuek_, or _We Demand Our
Rights_.  In it is a list of church properties (with photographs) that
have not been given back to the Hungarian Reformed, Catholic, Unitarian,
and Greek Catholic churches.  Since 1989, NOT ONE piece of property has
been returned to any of these churches that had been taken away by the
Communists.

Here is an excerpt, written by Csiha Kaalmaan, Bishop of the Reformed
Church in Transylvania:

In this book one can find a part of the nationalised goods of our
Church.  In every line of it there is life, sacrifice, suffering and
grief caused by an order which denied God and oppressed the people.  Our
four and a half century-old schools which once were built [with] the
donations of our congregations, and were always rebuilt after wars and
world-wars, were taken away by the communist dicatorship.  [The] [s]ocial
order changed five years ago but we didn't get back anything.  Our
Church founded those institutions following God's Word.  It maintained and
guarded more than five hundred elementary schools, sixteen high schools
[besides] other institutions, hospitals and orphanages for more than four
hundred years to serve everybody who needed them.  The school law of
"Bethlen Gaabor" high school in Gyulafeheervaar, which later moved to
Nagyenyed is 365 years old.
        These schools were not built with the money given by the state!
They were created by the generosity of the members of the Reformed
Church...
        These goods should be given back immediately.  We cry for justice
in a new world which calls itself righteous, democratic and free.  By
the restitution of our goods, which were robbed from us we want moral,
financial, political and legal justice....


----------------
jim doepp



/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /