Aniko, it seems you have problem with reading.
To be aware of a problem, is not the same as coming to conclusions.
I'll wait now until you manage to comprehend stuff first, an then
we'll have a decent discussion.

>
> At 11:23 PM 18/06/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >> Gladly ... What I considered to be disrespectful, are your following quote
d
> >> words
> >> "My foremost task is to make people aware of the problems".
> >>
> >So what is disrespectful about that?
>
> Words portray an assumption that people need you to do so ... is
> disrespectful in my eyes.  I give them credit for their own abilities to
> draw conclusion.
>
> Best, Aniko
>

Are you finished hyperventilating, Aniko?

At 01:32 AM 6/18/97 -0300, you wrote:

<snip>
>You're taking words out of context entirely, Joe!  But .... what you
>interpret as "conspicuous consumption" others might well consider as being
>valid examples (though hastily written) of the fact that living standards
>in Hungary have ... indeed changed.  Which, I believe *was* the point in
>questions?.

Indeed.  And for some, it changed for the worse.  Change goes both ways.
Why do you never mention those who are hurting from the changes?

>Now ... if you wanna talk about "soup kitchens" within Hungary .... or
>elsewhere, start a new thread for goodness sake ... and, stop taking my
>words out of context.   Please and thank you!?

What's the context of your words?  What do you understand about living
standards when you only look at the top, at the winners?  Denying that
there are losers in the *new* market economy (a.k.a. capitalism) is to deny
reality.  How many sets of rose coloured glasses do you have, anyway?

Joe Szalai

"... O base Hungarian wight! wilt thou the spigot wield?"
           --- Shakespeare

At 06:09 AM 6/19/97 -0400, Ferenc Novak, this list's Master Debater, in
"Re: Whiners", wrote:

>Finally, a very discouraging political apathy
>everywhere.  Many people feel that -- democracy or not -- those in power are
>only concerned about their own welfare and don't really care about the needs
>and concerns of the people.  Such people don't even intend to vote at the
>next election.  This I find deeply disturbing.

Why?  Hungarians are just catching up to the West, and Americans in
particular, when it comes to voting or thinking that the vote means
anything anymore.  What was the percentage of Americans who voted in last
year's Presidential election?  Was the Hungarian percentage any lower?  I
don't think so.

By the way, Ferenc, you're starting to sound like a socialist when you
empathize with the "needs and concerns of the people".  Good work.  Keep it
up.

Joe Szalai

"A practical man is a man who practices the errors of his forefathers."
      --- Disraeli

On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Aniko Dunford wrote:

<snip>
> I, or anyone else don't really have to ... You and Eva D., cover all such
> points explicitly ... resulting in what I consider to be out of balance and
> unrealistically portrayed.

Gimme a break, will ya?  You're in no position to say that my stuff is out
of balance and unrealistic.  That's Eva Balogh's job!  Why, even your
buddy, Ferenc Novak, says that you exaggerate the wealth in Budapest.  It
seems you can't differentiate between well-to-do Hungarians, tourists and
the mafiosi.  So, please refrain from calling me unrealistic until ....
until others on this list come to your defense and agree with you that
every other car in Budapest is a BMW.  In the meantime, I have a
suggestion.  Don't hold your breath, because you're on your own on this
one.  If no one comes to your defense, just acknowledge that you don't
know what you're talking about - again!

> >What's the context of your words?  What do you understand about living
> >standards when you only look at the top, at the winners?  Denying that
> >there are losers in the *new* market economy (a.k.a. capitalism) is to
> >deny reality.  How many sets of rose coloured glasses do you have,
> >anyway?

[...]
> You make alot of assumptions Joe!!!  Some are only more
> ridiculous than others.

Is that the best answer I'm going to get from you?

Joe Szalai

"Whenever I'm caught between two evils, I take the one I've never tried."
         --- Mae West

At 08:24 PM 6/19/97 -0300, you wrote:

>But I also note that the people recognize (even if reluctantly), that there
>are costs and sacrifices associated with their newly found "freedom" if you
>will, and although whine alot, complain alot ... most certainly spit out an
>instant "NO", when outright asked, "would you prefer to go back "?

Then what on earth are they doing when they go to the polls?  They
obviously want something, but they're not getting it.

Joe Szalai





To me,
>it remains inconceivable to think that the transition would/could have been
>smooth and rapid.  Nor that it could result in the "ideal system".
>>snip>
>>What I also saw was a
>>resurgence of civic pride and a lessening of the feeling of inferiority vs.
>>Bp. -- a very healthhy sign.  Finally, a very discouraging political apathy
>>everywhere.  Many people feel that -- democracy or not -- those in power are
>>only concerned about their own welfare and don't really care about the needs
>>and concerns of the people.  Such people don't even intend to vote at the
>>next election.  This I find deeply disturbing.
>[...]
>How nicely worded!  Second your observations.  Thanks for your post.
>Best, Aniko
>>
>
>

At 11:23 PM 18/06/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>
>I have some ideas about Vac, it is not a village, but an old and
>in the Hungarian context not even a particularily small town,
>and being near to Budapest, it is a fairly prosperous in that.
[...]
Prosperous you say? In Hungary? where according to you:
"I would feel much happier, if I'd had valid reasons to believe, that
living standards in Hungary would rise"?
>
>they agree, that Hungary is on the best possible path?
>They are happy with their living standard?  They are better off than
>before? That is a surprise. I wonder why the new regime not proudly
>announcing this fact? Not many country manages to raise the living
>standard for the poor, not even the US!
[...]
I find your first inquisitionis to be rather odd.  I was originally
responding to your thoughts as quoted above, which did not specify "living
standards" as being tied to any one class.  Now, you're talking about
living standards for the poor.  Different kettle of fish.

>> Wanna debate fair Eva? ... Leave my words in their context and ... in their
>> entirety Geeessh ... already!
>
>I thought it was neticet not to reproduce all text, only the
>relevant bits.
[...]
Snip some ... leave relevant  begin cut and paste
">> the world now, as opposed to prior when the shelves were practically empty
>> even within the teeny cubicles they used to call stores.
>-description of booming down-town cut-
>> Best, Aniko
I
"
 end cut and paste

Sorry Eva ... was not being clear last night.  Was objecting to your method
of exercising "neticet", which was done so in a manner as above. To me,
made it next to impossible to decipher who's thoughts are whose, that's all.
Best, Aniko

At 11:23 PM 18/06/97 GMT, you wrote:
>> Gladly ... What I considered to be disrespectful, are your following quoted
>> words
>> "My foremost task is to make people aware of the problems".
>>
>So what is disrespectful about that?

Words portray an assumption that people need you to do so ... is
disrespectful in my eyes.  I give them credit for their own abilities to
draw conclusion.

Best, Aniko

At 10:29 PM 6/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Are you finished hyperventilating, Aniko?
Yes, for now .... but am sure that you'll succeed at spurring on a repeat at
some time ..:-)
><snip>

>Indeed.  And for some, it changed for the worse.  Change goes both ways.
>Why do you never mention those who are hurting from the changes?
[...]
I, or anyone else don't really have to ... You and Eva D., cover all such
points explicitly ... resulting in what I consider to be out of balance and
unrealistically portrayed.

>What's the context of your words?  What do you understand about living
>standards when you only look at the top, at the winners?  Denying that
>there are losers in the *new* market economy (a.k.a. capitalism) is to deny
>reality.  How many sets of rose coloured glasses do you have, anyway?
[...]
You make alot of assumptions Joe!!!  Some are only more ridiculous than others.
Best, Aniko

Eva D  -  At 07:22 AM 6/19/97 -0300, you wrote:
>Wouldn't you be happier, if all those groups you listed
>wouldn't have to rely on their luck that some well-off people will
>have a pang of guilty feeling and put a few pounds their way?
[...]
What an incredibly stupid question Eva!

>(Even that is not true, most income to charity is from the average
>earners, who seem to have more empathy with the needy.)
>Oops, then Aniko cannot have the rewarding role of fairy
>grandmother.
[...]
It would serve you well, to have an idea of the mandates involved, sources
and disribution of funds, and methods utilized prior to making such a statement
.

<snip>
>for you. If I had  a few spare pounds, I would spend it to help along
>a system that stops such humiliation as relying on charity forever.
[...]
And am sure, that the system "would then be" an ideal one - seeing as to how
clearly established it is in your mind; and how ready you are at delivering!
In the meantime Eva, remain the kids who are deprived of special education,
the right of participation etc etc etc .....  but hey! what the heck ....
they can wait!

Best, Aniko

Szalai - At 02:50 PM 19/06/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Aniko Dunford wrote:
>
Gimme a break, will ya?
[...]
Yup!  Just as soon as them bucks arrive.  The ones, with which you're gonna
show that you are willing to put your monies where your mouth is ...

> You're in no position to say that my stuff is out of balance and
unrealistic.
[...]
To portray only doom and gloom ... is out of balance and unrealistic.  Say
- would it help, if I wrote this in Hungarian?

>That's Eva Balogh's job!
[...]
Whoopss ... do apologize ... didn't realize that we each had assigned jobs,
roles with responsibilites..... you'd think that someone after almost two
years would have thought of passing it along to me?  Oh heck!  ...think
that Eva has shown signs of resignation anyways, so she won't object too
much for having stepped on her toes.  Wonder if she resigned from her job
on this group, or from your combined ideals:-) ... Btw; since I never did
receive the proceedure manual ... someone ought to enlighten me as to what
'my job' is ...

>Why, even your
>buddy, Ferenc Novak, says that you exaggerate the wealth in Budapest.
[...]
OHHHH, yummieee ... I have a buddy, I didn't know of .... and one who
writes so wonderfully!  How nice of you to inform me!  But, it would also
help if you were to show him a tad of respect by reading what he writes,
rather than what you want to hear.

>seems you can't differentiate between well-to-do Hungarians, tourists and
>the mafiosi.
[...]
Seems that you are not reading well.  Try again ha?  Or, could it be, that
you object to my refusal to agree with your gloom and doom attitude? Which,
I do refuse to agree with, until I first hand experience it's consistent
evidence.

>So, please refrain from calling me unrealistic until
[...]
Yup ... I surely will, count on it, guaranteed, and promised.  The very
moment, you display signs of being realistic.

>come to your defense and agree with you that
>every other car in Budapest is a BMW.
[...]
Ok ... so I exaggerated a *bit*.  Sides, that's not exactly what I said.
And, I corrected by changing that to every 3rd.  (and don't forget the
mercies either.  Or the Porsches)  But ... if it really makes you feel
better, I'll get more accurate stats during my next trip ... okeydokey?

> In the meantime, I have a
>suggestion.  Don't hold your breath, because you're on your own on this
>one.  If no one comes to your defense, just acknowledge that you don't
>know what you're talking about - again!
[...]
Cheap shot, Jozsika!  But not nearly as cheap as your previous two -
>
[...]
>> You make alot of assumptions Joe!!!  Some are only more
>> ridiculous than others.
>
>Is that the best answer I'm going to get from you?
[...]
Yup ... for now .... I guess that be it.  You know ... tit for tat?
Best, Aniko
ps - (cute sig)

Joe  - quoting me At 08:35 PM 19/06/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 08:24 PM 6/19/97 -0300, you wrote:
>
>>But I also note that the people recognize (even if reluctantly), that there
>>are costs and sacrifices associated with their newly found "freedom" if you
>>will, and although whine alot, complain alot ... most certainly spit out an
>>instant "NO", when outright asked, "would you prefer to go back "?
>
>Then what on earth are they doing when they go to the polls?  They
>obviously want something, but they're not getting it.
[...]
A fast guess - They must be exercising human nature.

Best Aniko

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Aniko Dunford wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > I, or anyone else don't really have to ... You and Eva D., cover all such
> > points explicitly ... resulting in what I consider to be out of balance and
> > unrealistically portrayed.

   And she is very polite saying this. Others would use harsher words.

> Gimme a break, will ya?  You're in no position to say that my stuff is out
> of balance and unrealistic.  That's Eva Balogh's job!  Why, even your

   ... and everybody else's job. You are way-way off, Joe. I agree that
not as way off as Eva D., but this is no big thing.

> buddy, Ferenc Novak, says that you exaggerate the wealth in Budapest.  It
> seems you can't differentiate between well-to-do Hungarians, tourists and
> the mafiosi.  So, please refrain from calling me unrealistic until ....
> until others on this list come to your defense and agree with you that
> every other car in Budapest is a BMW.  In the meantime, I have a

   She doesn't need any defense. She is just telling like it is.

> suggestion.  Don't hold your breath, because you're on your own on this
> one.  If no one comes to your defense, just acknowledge that you don't
> know what you're talking about - again!

   This is your thing, Joe. But please go ahead and hold your breath.

> > >What's the context of your words?  What do you understand about living
> > >standards when you only look at the top, at the winners?  Denying that
> > >there are losers in the *new* market economy (a.k.a. capitalism) is to
> > >deny reality.  How many sets of rose coloured glasses do you have,
> > >anyway?

   This must be the daily slogan dose from Eva D.

> > You make alot of assumptions Joe!!!  Some are only more
> > ridiculous than others.

   None of the nonsense bothers him, he doesn't realize what they are.

> Is that the best answer I'm going to get from you?
>
> Joe Szalai

   Being childish again, eh? As ususal, when you don't have anything to
argue with, you just become contrary. Or sink even lower and attack the
person.
          Amos

Durant wrote:
>
> Aniko, it seems you have problem with reading.
> To be aware of a problem, is not the same as coming to conclusions.
> I'll wait now until you manage to comprehend stuff first, an then
> we'll have a decent discussion.

   If this is an attempt to be funny, it is a total failure. This is
almost as good as Szalai's obfuscation.  And at least  as insulting.
You wouldn't know what a 'decent discussion' is if it hit you. Slogans
do-not-make a discussion. But it will take you some time to discover
this - if ever.
                 Amos

Dear Colleagues,

In a few weeks we will welcome three new members into the Hungarian Lobby.
Let me tell you a bit about them:

1) Baby Mendonca

Kriszti Mendonca is expecting her first baby around the 23rd of July.
Krisztike is the young lady who has prepared and is continuously updating our
Danube web-page at:  http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm

Thanks to her efforts, thousands have learned the details of this, the first
international environmental lawsuit and many major articles have used it as
their source. The latest is the lead article in the #1 environmental
magazine: Earth Island Journal.

True to form, Kriszti has prepared a web-page for "Baby Mendonca" in which
she shows the experiences of the baby during the first 8 months of its
existence. If you want to see the progress of this new HL member, go to:
http://www.goodpoint.com/baby/

2) Baby Orban

The first child of Peter Orban is expected about the same time as
Krisztike's. Peter is single handedly responsible for many of our successes.
At the age of 29, in addition to a full time job and building a family nest,
he is making sure that we in the HL not only talk about our problems, but act
upon them. He has issued no "action-call" in connection with Baby Orban, but
based on the steady, firm and persevering  style of the father in connection
with our past 69 actions, I'm sure that the baby will also be a welcome
addition to our ranks.

3) Baby Liptak

My son Adam and his wife Jenny are expecting my second grandchild in August.
Adam is a senior counselor at the New York Times where he specializes in
First Ammendment Law, as it relates to the freedom of the press . They are
visiting Hungary at the moment and I hope that their baby will become great
frinds with those of Krisztike and Peter.

Best regards: Bela Liptak.

PS: Apropos: On the 7th of September, starting at 1 PM, in the Hungarian
House of New York (213 E. 82nd), we will hold a Roundtable discussion on
passing the baton to the "younger generation." All, who have a desire to
participate are welcome.

 writes:

>a) ALL stores in Hungary (from the little corner to the recently introduced
>"SuperStore" are filled with high qualify foods and products from all over
>the world now...

Quite true.  But the prices are pretty much identical to those in North
America.  And, since the earnings of most people are much less then here, the
buyers of those goods come primarily from the ranks of foreigners and the
newly rich.  A large part of the population can't afford the prices of  these
items.

Having all those "high qualify foods and products from all over the world" is
a  mixed blessing.  In many cases, more expensive imports have replaced the
cheaper domestic products.  This seeming inconsistency is the unintended
result of the large-scale privatization of the Hungarian economy, whereby the
new, foreign owners have bought up factories without necessarily intending to
continue operating them.  In such cases, they really bought the market for
their own enterprises, whose product -- even if more expensive -- now
replaces the previously available, often cheaper domestic product.

> While the costs have risen considerably the carts are packed to
>their brims at newly introducted "SuperStores" and line ups at computerized
>check-outs are longer than are here in Canada.

This I have seen myself also.  One reason being that prices are typically
lower  at these stores.

>b) Almost every second car in Bpest is a Mercedes a BMW, with American cars
>catching on real strong.  I have seen more Porsches in Bpest than anywhere
else.

A slight exaggeration, but there is a lot of truth to it.  It helps to know
that there are not only many foreign businessmen, but also hords of mafiosi
and other newly rich enterpreneurs in Budapest these days for whom
ostentatiousness is a way of life.  But I would not draw sweeping conclusions
from such observations.

In my experience one can no more draw generalized conclusions about life in
Hungary from a brief stay in Budapest  than trying to understand the USA on
the basis of having seen New York.  Visiting other cities or the countryside
can yield a much more valid picture of the present-day Hungarian reality.

To add my own brief observations during a recent visit:  Despite its being
constantly  gridlocked with western cars of all descriptions, Budapest's air
is noticeably cleaner than it was at the time of my last visit four years
ago.  The reason is that the buses have been equipped with new, less
polluting engines.  And yes, there are hardly any Trabants left.  The
differentiation between social strata has greatly increased; The contrast
between life as depicted by Aniko' and that in the city's underpasses is
stark.  Smaller cities (Esztergom, Szeged) exhibit much less extremes.  There
are the Trabants and Wartburgs that have disappeared from Bp; I saw hardly
any obvious wealth, but no stark poverty either.  What I also saw was a
resurgence of civic pride and a lessening of the feeling of inferiority vs.
Bp. -- a very healthhy sign.  Finally, a very discouraging political apathy
everywhere.  Many people feel that -- democracy or not -- those in power are
only concerned about their own welfare and don't really care about the needs
and concerns of the people.  Such people don't even intend to vote at the
next election.  This I find deeply disturbing.

Ferenc