Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker wrote:

> George Antony wrote:

> >Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker wrote:
> >> Sorry, but from what I've heard from a lot of people whom I trust, I think
> >> I'll stick to visiting Hungary this year, and not add Poland just yet.

> >I think that this is a bit of a logical jump after a perfectly reasonable
> >comparison of the economic development records of Hungary and Poland.
> >
> >Poland has plenty of interesting sights and very nice people.  If you
> >haven't been there yet, I would strongly recommend it.

> Yes, well so does China, and Russia.  However the last two times my father
> and friends visited China, virtually everyone on the trip (more than 100 the
> first time and 300 the second time) ended up with serious respiratory
> illnesses--some in the hospital.
> [...]
> Regarding Russia, my Russian American businessmen friends, including one who
> has helped Bechtel to a few contracts to provide better infrastructure for
> Russians, all travel around with two or three cars filled with bodyguards
> and spare car parts.
> [...]
> I also believe it is possible that Miami will again someday be a nice
> resort, and Cancun will no longer be all but swimming in and breathing raw
> sewage.
>
> It's just that with so many other places that are just as lovely, and less
> hazardous to one's health or pocket book, why should I visit the more
> hazardous ones right now?

Well, then carefully keep away from Hungary too, or obtain more information
to be able to make more realistic comparisons.

For Poland and Hungary are much closer to one another in pollution, law and
order situation, bureaucratic hassles, public infrastructure, prices, etc.,
etc., etc., than they are to China, Russia, Miami or Cancun.

Besides, being a Hungarian used to be a great plus in Poland that ensured
extra hospitality and little favours along the the way.  It still may be.
Ditto in Turkey that I found one of the most fascinating and hospitable
countries I ever visited, but of course also chaotic, polluted, dangerous,
with bad public infrastructure.  Either of them was much more fun than
Switzerland: clean, clockwork everything, beautiful scenery with grumpy
locals.

George Antony

Perhaps something is up with the resistance
of US citizens, who make it into exotic countries?
Our fellow travellers (from US)  to India (in the 70s) were
dropping like flies inspite of all the water-/
disinfactant stuff they were carrying with them,
and not touching the local food.
We (UK/Hungary) did not eat meat while there and only drunk tea,
but otherwise eaten as the locals everywhere
and were never as healthy since...
(This is not to defend any spoilt environment anywhere.)
Eva Durant



>
> Dear George;
>
> At 11:31 AM 2/19/96 +1000, you wrote:
> >Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker wrote:
> >
> >> Sorry, but from what I've heard from a lot of people whom I trust, I think
> >> I'll stick to visiting Hungary this year, and not add Poland just yet.
> >
> >I think that this is a bit of a logical jump after a perfectly reasonable
> >comparison of the economic development records of Hungary and Poland.
> >
> >Poland has plenty of interesting sights and very nice people.  If you
> >haven't been there yet, I would strongly recommend it.
> >
> Yes, well so does China, and Russia.  However the last two times my father
> and friends visited China, virtually everyone on the trip (more than 100 the
> first time and 300 the second time) ended up with serious respiratory
> illnesses--some in the hospital.  To quote the doctor looking at my father
> and step-mother's lungs: "the last time I saw lungs burnt this bad, it was
> the result of a chemical factory accident."  Assuming the acid rain, smog,
> fog, etc. doesn't destroy all that is lovely in China in the next 20 years,
> and if the Chinese ever (and I do think this is possible) reduce air
> pollution, then I will visit the monuments and other lovely sites still
> left.  I do believe they'll be around for awhile longer.
>
> Regarding Russia, my Russian American businessmen friends, including one who
> has helped Bechtel to a few contracts to provide better infrastructure for
> Russians, all travel around with two or three cars filled with bodyguards
> and spare car parts.  I also believe that someday crime and bureacratic
> chaos will subside in Russia and I will be able to visit the lovely sites
> there, also without having to hire about a dozen bodyguards and pay a small
> fortune in spare car parts.
>
> I also believe it is possible that Miami will again someday be a nice
> resort, and Cancun will no longer be all but swimming in and breathing raw
> sewage.
>
> It's just that with so many other places that are just as lovely, and less
> hazardous to one's health or pocket book, why should I visit the more
> hazardous ones right now?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
> N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

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,accounting , graphic designs , name it as long asi get paid
i speak hungarian english and french able to travel

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Yesterday, Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker, wanted to know if anyone on this group
could give an example of a state or nation that could provide decent health
care with reasonable costs and a non-deficit ridden government.

Cecilia is a switch hitter who feels equally at home with the Democrats or
the GOP.  Her constancy is to support the status quo while posing as a mover
and shaker.  So it should be of no surprise to anyone that she believes that
the answer to her question is, "no".  Given her fluency in politics, it
seems ironic that she has not heard of "political will".  Like a powerless
child, she throws up her hands and says, "it can't be done".  I say, balderdash
!

In the January 9/16, 1995 issue of The Nation (no relation to Nemzet) Robert
Sherrill, in an article titled "The Madness Of the Market" wrote:

"Alas, letting the market tend to basic human needs like health (or housing
or education, for that matter) is a joke.  Let us not forget, after all,
that the "market" is really a tidy euphemism for much dirtier forces --
unregulated greed, impersonal corporations, unaccountable overlords, giant
accumulations of wealth resulting in the impoverishment of millions.  And
behind every failing of government programs to soften the ravages of the
market -- in this case to build a safety net below the poor and the elderly
sick, to prevent discrimination against the weak -- one finds rapacious
capitalists scamming billions of the public's money."

Ditto for Canada.  And these "market forces", with their unblushing
apologists, will soon ravage Hungary and Eastern Europe in ways that will
make the bad old days look like the good old days.

Joe Szalai

What is the official technical term in Hungarian for 'touch-tone telephone"?

L. J. Elteto

On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, Tony and Celia Becker wrote:

>  Some states, Hawaii and Oregon to
> >name two, have instituted their own type of universal coverage to
> >grant at least basic coverage to those in need.
> Does someone in this group from a state or nation that does have this
combination > and would like to tell us how it can be done?  Some positive
> information/experience, please?  No guessing or "I thinking."
>
Just a few comments regarding the "unseen" effects of state mandated
health care coverage in the state of Hawaii.  First, coverage must only
be offered to employees who work greater than 19 hours per week.  Thus,
businesses that can survive using part-time help (retail, restaurants,
etc.) can minimize their health care costs.  As a result, a person could
work full-time hours at 2 or more part-time positions and not receive
health care coverage ( and are not eligible for state "medicaid" type
insurance because they make too much money).
With the group cost of Blue Cross type coverage (generally 80 % coverage)
approaching $ 200 per month for a single employee, it is obvious
why businesses would try to limit medical coverage care.  Those employees
fortunate enough to be provided health care coverage, but have an
unemployed spouse and children are facing a $250 to $350 additional
premium cost for family coverage.
Second, the state sponsored "medicaid" type Quest program for the poor is
limited in benefits and payment schedule to the provider, which results
in a different standard of care for Quest patients.
Third, the mandated health care coverage requirements has impacted the
development of diversified business in Hawaii, and places an extreme
financial burden on small businesses (along with all the other high costs
of doing business in Hawaii).

So, while the mandated health care coverage has generally resulted in a
healthier population due to the greater use of preventive care, the Hawaii
program is not universal for the entire state population by
any means, and has also resulted in significant impacts on the economic
recovery of the State.

Aloha,
Nora Oresko Conroy

Dear Peter;

At 10:56 AM 2/20/96 -0400, you wrote:

>At 6:41 PM 2/16/96, Jim Burke wrote:
>>I am trying to help my daughter learn more about Hungarian
>>immigration to the United States. When it occured and where most of
>>the settlement took place. We are having difficulting good,
>>specific, sources for information. Any assistance in pointing her in
>>the right direction would be most welcome. She has found some of
>>your most recent postings informative about current discussions
>>about Hungary.

In addition to your other excellent postings of sources, here are a couple
more that I hope you will kindly forward:

Hungarian American Foundation and Culture Center, New Brunswick, New Jersey
has a complete library and museum, largely dedicated to this subject.

_Calculated Kindness: Refugees and America's Half-Open Door, 1945 to the
Present_; by Gil Loescher and John A. Scanlan; The Free Press, Division of
MacMillan, Inc.; New York, NY, 1986.   ISBN 0-02-927340-4

U.S. National Archives, Washington, DC: ships' passenger lists--and indices
from 1820 to present.  All U.S. ports.  Random sample of any ethnic group's
surnames can show over the years where most emigrants of that group
landed--and often what their final destinations were, with the national
archives records.  We found parts of my husband's and my own families in
other states through national archives records that listed not only the
ports from which they sailed and to which they arrived--but also where they
were bound in the U.S. as a final destination, through information provided
to authorities as they debarked.  All this was prior to "Ellis Island."

There are also published compilations of some ethnic groups' passenger lists
in various major city libraries, and university libraries.  The Germans have
a really good set--and included Austrians and Austro-Hungarians with
Germanic sounding surnames.
>
Respectfully,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear George;

At 03:42 PM 2/27/96 +1000, you wrote:


>Well, then carefully keep away from Hungary too, or obtain more information
>to be able to make more realistic comparisons.
>
>For Poland and Hungary are much closer to one another in pollution, law and
>order situation, bureaucratic hassles, public infrastructure, prices, etc.,
>etc., etc., than they are to China, Russia, Miami or Cancun.
>
>Besides, being a Hungarian used to be a great plus in Poland that ensured
>extra hospitality and little favours along the the way.  It still may be.
>Ditto in Turkey that I found one of the most fascinating and hospitable
>countries I ever visited, but of course also chaotic, polluted, dangerous,
>with bad public infrastructure.  Either of them was much more fun than
>Switzerland: clean, clockwork everything, beautiful scenery with grumpy
>locals.
>
When have you last visited any of these?  I visited Hungary in October,
1993, and have had quite a few friends and acquaintances visiting nearly
_all_ the East Central European countries, and Russia, and Turkey since
then.  I also visited France and Switzerland in 1993.  I agree with you on
Switzerland--and there is no comparison between getting from point to point
in France and Hungary--choose Hungary.  However, it is all relative and a
matter of which poisons/hazards one can tolerate better.  My own preference
is for the "poison" of KisGepard's (I'm not even going to try to get behind
my husband's computer work in progress at the bookshelf for the souvenir
book that would enable me to check that spelling--every time I even look in
that direction at least 3 items tumble off something in between) triple
chocolate torte on a sunlit afternoon in Vorosmarty Square.  ;-)

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker

San Jose, CA, USA






>
>
N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Peter;

Have you ever read Dr. Badiny's et al's book?  Also have you ever visited
the little old church at Tihany where one of the first kings is buried?

At 07:33 PM 2/26/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 3:45 PM 2/26/96, Tony and Celia Becker wrote:
>>Dear Sam;
>>
>>Good reply, but here's some additional food for thought.
>
>>"Thus we succeeded in proving that the Sumerian language did not die out but
>>in fact, did survive in the scattered Hungarian language remains in the
>>Latin Chronicles Literature of the 10-12th centuries A.D."
>
>No Hungarian document survived from these centuries. Hungarian language
>remains of the following centuries are Hungarian language fregments and not
>Sumerian. Their grammatical structure is Finno-Ugric and so is their
>vocabulary.

Sorry, but Dr. Badiny refers to several, the introduction to at least one
set of German translations of the Matthias Corvinus chronicles also refer to
some of the items going back to the first Arpad kings, ( I found this set at
the U of MN rare books archives), and the church at Tihany shows tourists a
piece of about 12th century literature.

>>
>>Not to mention the Jews as the "only chosen people of God" who ought to be
>>protected by everyone, even from their own follies--if either the ridiculous
>>idea of anyone's ought to be able to be trumping anyone--or the equally idea
>>of any "specially-chosen" people existing at all should be considered by
>>anyone.
>
>Now you are in strange company Cecilia, the company of those emigre
>Hungarians who swear on the Sumerian connection.

Again, please read Dr. Badiny's book--and check with members of the Society
of Sumerologists who reviewed his work, before dismissing any Sumerian
connection as nonsense.  You know, less than 180 years ago, all educated and
sage officialdom was still teaching that the world had been created in
exactly 4004 B.C..  Information does change, thank heaven, from ignorance,
prejudices and limitations of the past.  Too bad it doesn't all change at
once.  The latest nonsense from the generally reasonably well-educated
people/legislature of Tennessee being just one example of how slow some
people are to catch up.  It also took more than 20 years from the time
William McNeish first turned up several items of concrete
evidence--artifacts and the like--to even have a slim majority of world-wide
anthropologists now agreeing that the majority of people whom became modern
"Native Americans" emigrated before 13,000 years ago.  At the rate things
are currently finally going, it looks like old Louis Leakey may have the
last laugh yet...

Just because you, personally, Peter, have not acquainted yourself with
either the latest, work, or recent proceedings from the foremost
international society of researchers into a given subject doesn't mean that
the information or concepts are wrong.

I am quite sure this question will continue for at least another 10-15
years--judging from what I've seen regarding other issues in the field of
history and anthropology--and that there will always be an element that
refuses to accept whatever finally becomes an established scientific
consensus, just as we still have the existence of a "flat earth society."

I just hope the discussion is going better at the universities among real
Sumerian researchers--and not just those who like to try to interpret their
work--or worse, just summaries of their work--than in this discussion group.

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Joe;

My first inclination was to ignore this message as beneath a reply entirely.
You normally write interesting postings.  This message is very insulting,
unproductive and unhelpful.  However, if no one points this out, you may
think that it is entirely ok to continue such behavior toward others.

At 11:11 AM 2/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Yesterday, Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker, wanted to know if anyone on this group
>could give an example of a state or nation that could provide decent health
>care with reasonable costs and a non-deficit ridden government.
>
>Cecilia is a switch hitter who feels equally at home with the Democrats or
>the GOP.  Her constancy is to support the status quo while posing as a mover
>and shaker.

Joe, you don't know me at all, only a few postings of mine.  Do you make
such statements of people on such short and limited acquaintance generally?
I don't know what your intentions are as to a long-term career that takes
care of your old age beyond capabilities of self-employment, but such
behavior is not likely to be helpful with career advancement in the U.S.--or
achieving any great social changes involving _convincing/persuading_ the
masses (without the use of cruelty) to exert themselves on the basis of the
best within them.

So it should be of no surprise to anyone that she believes that
>the answer to her question is, "no".  Given her fluency in politics, it
>seems ironic that she has not heard of "political will".  Like a powerless
>child, she throws up her hands and says, "it can't be done".  I say,
balderdash!

I did _not_ at any time say "it can't be done."  I  merely asked for
information if it had.  You have provided no such information only personal
insults.  How have you helped this discussion, in this manner?  And I'm
still seriously waiting for an intelligent respectful response to a real
question.
>
>In the January 9/16, 1995 issue of The Nation (no relation to Nemzet) Robert
>Sherrill, in an article titled "The Madness Of the Market" wrote:
>
>"Alas, letting the market tend to basic human needs like health (or housing
>or education, for that matter) is a joke.  Let us not forget, after all,
>that the "market" is really a tidy euphemism for much dirtier forces --
>unregulated greed, impersonal corporations, unaccountable overlords, giant
>accumulations of wealth resulting in the impoverishment of millions.  And
>behind every failing of government programs to soften the ravages of the
>market -- in this case to build a safety net below the poor and the elderly
>sick, to prevent discrimination against the weak -- one finds rapacious
>capitalists scamming billions of the public's money."
>
>Ditto for Canada.  And these "market forces", with their unblushing
>apologists, will soon ravage Hungary and Eastern Europe in ways that will
>make the bad old days look like the good old days.

And you think the elites of the pre-1988 East Europe were any less greedy
and rapacious?  Think Joe, what does both these items--your "Nation article"
and the pre-1988 facts say about the likelihood of  _human_ nature--and its
inevitable tendency to keep forming rapacious greedy elites regardless of
many attempted changes in the political and social structures?

We need to change the tendencies, education, awareness of potential of
failings, and we need to keep creating more checks and balances at every
level.  It isn't done by just demagoguery, but darned hard work, little by
little with many kinds of people.  It's like the tide wearing away the
cliffs, not like a nuclear explosion.

I and many other good, caring people have spent entire lifetimes finding and
developing opportunities for incremental changes, here, occasionally a
sweeping change there.  I'm not very wealthy, nor am I in "who's who."  Life
has given me advantages and disadvantages. I do the best I can with what I
have, and I don't give up.  I try to find and work with reasonable people
and am not willing to sweepingly, categorize all the individuals in any
party or organization as all angels or devils.  I'm sorry if that idea
offends you, personally, but I'm not asking you to live as I do.  Just don't
insult my choice to live my own life as I choose and pretend that your own
choice is superior and I should live as you do.

In the final analysis, no matter the vagaries and whims of any and all, I
still must answer to God and my own conscience and that is what I care most
about.  You weren't there when I breathed what my sister and nurse thought
was my last when I was 13, nor when I was alone on an operating table with a
split skull when I was seven, nor again when I was alone at the age of 21 on
a mountainside with a concussion and multiple injuries from nearly head to
toe from being nearly beaten to death by my own darned government.  I've
survived that, and a heck of a lot else all for trying to empower all the
people world-wide to make their own decisions--and to preserve freedom of
speech, criticism etc. for all--including you, Mr. Szalai, whether you like
it or not.

I'm very sorry, but in this instance, I have to say, you haven't the
foggiest idea of what or whom you are talking about. Furthermore, I believe,
you owe me--and this group--an apology for this behavior.

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA




>
>Joe Szalai
>
>
N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Jim and Nora:
At 08:44 AM 2/27/96 -1000, you wrote:

Just wanted to thank you very much for an useful and kind reply.  I will
save your information for some upcoming discussions with some people whom I
know will be taking up this issue in Congress, etc. this coming year. It's
valuable information.  Again, thank you.

By the way, one more question?  How is the budget of the state of Hawaii?
Is it a deficit, surplus, or breaking even?  Hope it's one of the latter two.

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker


>Just a few comments regarding the "unseen" effects of state mandated
>health care coverage in the state of Hawaii.  First, coverage must only
>be offered to employees who work greater than 19 hours per week.  Thus,
>businesses that can survive using part-time help (retail, restaurants,
>etc.) can minimize their health care costs.  As a result, a person could
>work full-time hours at 2 or more part-time positions and not receive
>health care coverage ( and are not eligible for state "medicaid" type
>insurance because they make too much money).
>With the group cost of Blue Cross type coverage (generally 80 % coverage)
>approaching $ 200 per month for a single employee, it is obvious
>why businesses would try to limit medical coverage care.  Those employees
>fortunate enough to be provided health care coverage, but have an
>unemployed spouse and children are facing a $250 to $350 additional
>premium cost for family coverage.
>Second, the state sponsored "medicaid" type Quest program for the poor is
>limited in benefits and payment schedule to the provider, which results
>in a different standard of care for Quest patients.
>Third, the mandated health care coverage requirements has impacted the
>development of diversified business in Hawaii, and places an extreme
>financial burden on small businesses (along with all the other high costs
>of doing business in Hawaii).
>
>So, while the mandated health care coverage has generally resulted in a
>healthier population due to the greater use of preventive care, the Hawaii
>program is not universal for the entire state population by
>any means, and has also resulted in significant impacts on the economic
>recovery of the State.
>

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA