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It is easy to see why Dr Pellionisz has developed a sudden attraction
toward the Smallholders' Party, and its somewhat peculiar leader.  His
previous favorite was another "centralist" party (the MIEP, nee MUK).
It has not not exactly been a hit with the voters at election time.
Got something like one percent of the votes cast.  Not "centralist"
enough, it seems.  Perhaps Dr Torgyan and his party will prove
a better bet in 1998.

Dr Pellionisz and Dr Torgyan have a lot in common.  Their pronouncements
have the same starry-eyed Ubuesque quality, and they are both fond of
free-associating in public, in the best Dadaist tradition.  Dr Torgyan is
a phenomenon.  Facts and logic will not bother him.  He can, without
batting an eyelid, hold forth in Parliament about the "6,000 years of
Hungarian history in the Carpathian basin".  No problem.  A man who
writes his own ticket.  If facts get in the way, so much the worse for
the facts.  A born stand-up comic, with great timing and delivery.

Unlike Dr Pellionisz, Dr Torgyan is relaxed and laid-back.  He seems to
look on politics as a game, and he has discovered many opportunities at
the low end of the market.  Interestingly enough, he has not (so far)
taken up the cause of the mythical IMF lawsuit dreamed up by Dr Endrey.
Perhaps it is just a matter of time.  Would fit right in with the rest
of Dr Torgyan's ideas.  He is a happy-go-lucky fellow who seems to enjoy
clowning around.  He is also a popular politician.  Hungarians are
a fun-loving people, and Dr Torgyan provides badly needed entertainment
in these difficult times.  Besides, there have been hardly any good
jokes around since the demise of the fraternal Socialist camp.

Dr Pellionisz seems to lack Dr Torgyan's playful streak.  He has no time
for tomfoolery.  He does what he does because the responsibility for
putting the world right rests on his shoulders alone.  He is a man on a
mission to save us from ourselves.  He has his script all worked out and
typed up in nice big capital letters.  The details of the plot are a bit
hazy here and there, but the main points are pretty well nailed down.
In outline, the script runs like this:

Act 1 is to break ties with the IMF and the world economy.  Act 2 is
economic collapse, hyperinflation and chaos.  Act 3 has social unrest,
demonstrations, and barricades in the streets.  Lots of smoke and special
effects.  Act 4 is where the Pellionista storm troopers march in.
Banana republic proclaimed.  "Papa Doc" Pellionisz takes the helm.
Purges begin.  Act 5 is where the grateful nation awards Dr Pellionisz
the long-coveted membership of the Academy of Sciences that should be
rightfully his.  Trumpets.  Dancing girls.  Universal bliss.  Tears of
happiness.  Rousing Wagnerian finale.  Slow fade to sunset.  The End.

Dynamite script, but needs more work.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

It seems to me, that the Hungarian scene is
following the american model - which must please
some on this list.  The strata which was already doing
relatively comfortably, is doing even better now.
But the number of these lucky ones is narrowing,
and the previously poor ones are much poorer now,
(and there are more of them) as the schools,
nurseries,  hospitals, transport, cultural
services  are now to be "marketised".
So we can look forward to one percent of the people
owning 80 percent of the wealth created; to
large masses living in the powerty, which could mean
a second hand color tv and a 20 years old fridge
but no healthcare, education or hope.
(I've been to Hodmezovasarhely, where local industries are
closing down, privatised or not, in the grey dilapidated
blocks of flats everyone had the latest satellite connection,
but very few had jobs.)  (Give them circus?)
I would add, that those lucky ones in the privatised industry
perhaps cheer up the "consume" statistics, but working 7 days
a week and constant worry about the chance of beeing out of
a job, won't improve
health statistics and suiside tendencies...

The HVG is a valuable weekly to give us the facts or a "well
educated" guess of them, - and lot's of primitive mistakes -
but is very short on theories to put to readers, similar
shortage of ideas effect the media;  there is no criticism
allowed of the brilliant market economy of the world what
Hungary should follow without question. The right is disappointed
as capitalism is too much in a turmoil to honour the
fantastic (???) achievements in democracy with free money,
the liberals disappointed, as there is not enough money
to create a "humane" capitalist system. Money for
that luxury is running out everywhere.
Perhaps capitalism is not the best of possible systems?
Perhaps it is inadequate now to solve the problems of
global poverty/war and environmental danger. It seems
to be as much of a crumbling, self-destroying and
dangerous mess as Stalinism was, with the built-in
mechanism to become the powerhouse of mad demagogues,
racists, fundamentalists of one sort or another -
the clear sign of something going terribly wrong.

It will be pointed out, no doubt, that I am speaking
from a Marxist point of view, but aren't these
questions valid, and should be discussed, from
whatever perspective?

I am also convinced, that in '56 a lot of people
took part in events hoping, that they will defeat
Stalinism and end up with a democratic, but
still socialist system.  There are a lot of factual
proof of this, mostly in literature about worker's
councils at the time. I hope Eva Balogh will be kind
enough to verify this, as she has the resources...
she'll have the opennes and curiosity to do this,
as we are informed from an admirer of hers, that
she is some sort of socialist liberal - a
great surprise for some of us...    :=))))

The conditions were not yet ready for such a change,
but it is a more practical option now, when the
futility of relying on the chaos, material and ethical
bankruptcy of capitalism is more apparent...

Please note, that I did not use other than what I
believe to be pleasant personal quip, I'd like
the discussion to be about ideas and not about persons.

Carl Bittner ) wrote:
: HERE IT IS:  ABSOLUTELY FREE

: Spam as many groups as you want with one command.  Can post same
: message to 14,000 groups in just a few hours.

: Must have UNIX shell account, the attached script, and create two

[...snip...8<...]

        I'm sorry to see this. Idiots like these make normal Net usage
        difficult.I hope his program doesn't work and few people will try
        it.Hopefully the majority of people using the Net understands that
        keeping the traffic down helps everyone.Only purile,underdeveloped
        people want to send messages to annoy people.These childish activi-
        ties will make the net change into a commercial one soon when pay
        per bandwith will be the norm.This is my opinion, I am still new to
        the Net,but I think there are people who agree with this.
                Thank you for your time.

                                Csaba Harangozo
                                        

It seems to me, that the Hungarian scene is
 following the american model - which must please
 some on this list.  The strata which was already doing
 relatively comfortably, is doing even better now.
 But the number of these lucky ones is narrowing,
 and the previously poor ones are much poorer now,
 (and there are more of them) as the schools,
 nurseries,  hospitals, transport, cultural
 services  are now to be "marketised".
 So we can look forward to one percent of the people
 owning 80 percent of the wealth created; to
 large masses living in the powerty, which could mean
 a second hand color tv and a 20 years old fridge
 but no healthcare, education or hope.
 (I've been to Hodmezovasarhely, where local industries are
 closing down, privatised or not, in the grey dilapidated
 blocks of flats everyone had the latest satellite connection,
 but very few had jobs.)  (Give them circus?)
 I would add, that those lucky ones in the privatised industry
 perhaps cheer up the "consume" statistics, but working 7 days
 a week and constant worry about the chance of beeing out of
 a job, won't improve
 health statistics and suiside tendencies...

 The HVG is a valuable weekly to give us the facts or a "well
 educated" guess of them, - and lot's of primitive mistakes -
 but is very short on theories to put to readers, similar
 shortage of ideas effect the media;  there is no criticism
 allowed of the brilliant market economy of the world what
 Hungary should follow without question. The right is disappointed
 as capitalism is too much in a turmoil to honour the
 fantastic (???) achievements in democracy with free money,
 the liberals disappointed, as there is not enough money
 to create a "humane" capitalist system. Money for
 that luxury is running out everywhere.
 Perhaps capitalism is not the best of possible systems?
 Perhaps it is inadequate now to solve the problems of
 global poverty/war and environmental danger. It seems
 to be as much of a crumbling, self-destroying and
 dangerous mess as Stalinism was, with the built-in
 mechanism to become the powerhouse of mad demagogues,
 racists, fundamentalists of one sort or another -
 the clear sign of something going terribly wrong.

 It will be pointed out, no doubt, that I am speaking
 from a Marxist point of view, but aren't these
 questions valid, and should be discussed, from
 whatever perspective?

 I am also convinced, that in '56 a lot of people
 took part in events hoping, that they will defeat
 Stalinism and end up with a democratic, but
 still socialist system.  There are a lot of factual
 proof of this, mostly in literature about worker's
 councils at the time. I hope Eva Balogh will be kind
 enough to verify this, as she has the resources...
 she'll have the opennes and curiosity to do this,
 as we are informed from an admirer of hers, that
 she is some sort of socialist liberal - a
 great surprise for some of us...    :=))))

 The conditions were not yet ready for such a change,
 but it is a more practical option now, when the

 futility of relying on the chaos, material and ethical
 bankruptcy of capitalism is more apparent...

 Please note, that I did not use other than what I
 believe to be pleasant personal quip, I'd like
 the discussion to be about ideas and not about persons.

 

>  It seems to me, that the Hungarian scene is
>  following the american model - which must please
>  some on this list.  The strata which was already doing
>  relatively comfortably, is doing even better now.
>  But the number of these lucky ones is narrowing,
>  and the previously poor ones are much poorer now,
>  (and there are more of them) as the schools,
>  nurseries,  hospitals, transport, cultural
>  services  are now to be "marketised".
>  So we can look forward to one percent of the people
>  owning 80 percent of the wealth created; to
>  large masses living in the powerty, which could mean
>  a second hand color tv and a 20 years old fridge
>  but no healthcare, education or hope.
>  (I've been to Hodmezovasarhely, where local industries are
>  closing down, privatised or not, in the grey dilapidated
>  blocks of flats everyone had the latest satellite connection,
>  but very few had jobs.)  (Give them circus?)
>  I would add, that those lucky ones in the privatised industry
>  perhaps cheer up the "consume" statistics, but working 7 days
>  a week and constant worry about the chance of beeing out of
>  a job, won't improve
>  health statistics and suiside tendencies...
>
>  The HVG is a valuable weekly to give us the facts or a "well
>  educated" guess of them, - and lot's of primitive mistakes -
>  but is very short on theories to put to readers, similar
>  shortage of ideas effect the media;  there is no criticism
>  allowed of the brilliant market economy of the world what
>  Hungary should follow without question. The right is disappointed
>  as capitalism is too much in a turmoil to honour the
>  fantastic (???) achievements in democracy with free money,
>  the liberals disappointed, as there is not enough money
>  to create a "humane" capitalist system. Money for
>  that luxury is running out everywhere.
>  Perhaps capitalism is not the best of possible systems?
>  Perhaps it is inadequate now to solve the problems of
>  global poverty/war and environmental danger. It seems
>  to be as much of a crumbling, self-destroying and
>  dangerous mess as Stalinism was, with the built-in
>  mechanism to become the powerhouse of mad demagogues,
>  racists, fundamentalists of one sort or another -
>  the clear sign of something going terribly wrong.
>
>  It will be pointed out, no doubt, that I am speaking
>  from a Marxist point of view, but aren't these
>  questions valid, and should be discussed, from
>  whatever perspective?
>
>  I am also convinced, that in '56 a lot of people
>  took part in events hoping, that they will defeat
>  Stalinism and end up with a democratic, but
>  still socialist system.  There are a lot of factual
>  proof of this, mostly in literature about worker's
>  councils at the time. I hope Eva Balogh will be kind
>  enough to verify this, as she has the resources...
>  she'll have the opennes and curiosity to do this,
>  as we are informed from an admirer of hers, that
>  she is some sort of socialist liberal - a
>  great surprise for some of us...    :=))))
>
>  The conditions were not yet ready for such a change,
>  but it is a more practical option now, when the
>
>  futility of relying on the chaos, material and ethical
>  bankruptcy of capitalism is more apparent...
>
>  Please note, that I did not use other than what I
>  believe to be pleasant personal quip, I'd like
>  the discussion to be about ideas and not about persons.
>
>  

I wrote earlier:
>We would make a completely legal court action
>against IMF and World Bank i.e. we put the morons into suspense.

I've come aware just now what I wrote...I am sorry, it is a kind of
Freudian slip. I learnt this word, 'suspense,' in the context with
'moron' in a joke i've read originaly in alt.tasteless.jokes. I wan-
ted to write 'them^.....

/*---*/

Greg Grose asked:
>Could you, please, quantify this?  Excepting the former East Germans,
>is it true for every EE nation?  How far below standards of late com-
>munism is, e.g., Poland, and are the Poles closing the gap or not?

It is difficult to quantify with actual numbers because the two system
(communism & western capitalism) were so different that the numbers say
very little. On the other hand I was very surprised that you asked this
question because i've thought it is so evident that it needs no further
verification. Anyway, I try to present my point of view:

- As a matter of fact, everybody talks of *collapse* of a system with
consent. The usage of this  word 'collapse' itself suggests that the
things must went awry a little bit.

- Why do you think the people woted back the communists in every single
ex-communist country (except Czech Rep.) after some year ?

- The GDP of these countries have fallen considerably, in case of
Hungary, Poland & Czech Rep. by app. 30 % compared to the late '80s.
In other countries the slide went deeper.

Let's have a closer look on Hungary.

-  Unemployment. It was unknown, now we have app. 700 000 unemployed.
The number however doesn't reflect those who were forced to retirement,
like my father, who lost his workplace because the company went bank-
rupt. The number also doesn't say anything of young people, who after
finishing school had no chance to get their first job. (like my sister
who is a teacher.)

- Education, healthcare were basicly free. Just were. Taxes were much
smaller also, or did not exist at all.

- When I came to Switzerland 4 years ago, the excange rate was app.
45-50 Ft / SFR, now it is 108 Ft/ SFR. The salaries, the pension
somehow haven't doubled during the period in question, but the rents
did. You know, there is a yearly 33 % inflation which only the prices
try to succesfully keep up with.

- Our countinuously  negative trade balance suggests that Hungary's
economy is seriously ill, not at all competitive. Positive trade ba-
lance with a 5-8 % GDP increase would indicate progress....

- 7 or 8 years ago you could get a 30-year loan with 1-2 % interest
to build your house. Now the short term interest rates are around 36%,
and there is no affordable middle or long term offers. The net result:
people don't build houses. During the '80s, in the village I was living,
completely new roads were built up with large two and three-floor fami-
ly houses, most of them build without bank loan. Nowdays you may see
very few new constructions, most of them were started just before the
New Age, and the owners are still struggling (or gave up) to finish it.

- Budapest real estate prices.(I bought a flat last month.) There is no
demand in the low or middle priced properties, only offers. It means
that middle (and lower) class people have no money. The demands are so
low, that the offer prices are somewhat unrealistic, surrealistic.Take
into account that plenty of flats were bought by friction of the real
prices (1/10 as everage) from the government and this sell-out still
could not induce a working property market, or price drop.

- the quality of life today is just uncomparable to the late years of
communism. The economical instability, lack of security, the impossi-
bility of planning one's future are messing up everything that people
got used to.

- The democracy does not work. Point. There is no democracy without
functioning legal system, and the Hungarian is just does not have
one. What dou you call that that the simplest legal actions, suits
carry on for 2-3 years ? Why do you think are these counless com-
panies and individuals who specialized to collect money (by force) ?
Why do you think are price lists with offers spreding from breaking a
single finger to actually killing someone (the last one is 30-35 kFt) ?

- Freedom of Speech. Today one may speak as much as want, no one
will care. Under the communism - like it or not- it was the same.
Even, the chances were bigger for success, the Party tolerated the
'constructive criticism' especially when it came from the workers'
class. (My grandma once in the '50s didn't get her part of wheat be-
cause of the leadership of TSZCS cheated with the units (egyse'g) of
the members. Actually she didn't have anything for winter to give
her 5 children. She was a single mother. So, she wrote a letter to
Rakosi. After few days, some people, wearing black leather coat, came
to the village with black cars, and the leadership were questioned,
some TSZCS-leader were permanently taken away. At the end, everybody
who were swindled got their allowance, my grandmother got even one
sack more. You won't be able to explain to her (and other people like
her), that the recent democracy is better. She hated the communists,
but that system sometimes worked according her demand, which just
has not happened yet with this new system.)
Anyway, vast majority of people just did not care for such exotic
rights like this theoretical free speach, it was the hobby of a fist-
full of entellectuells.

- The 30-something billion debt ain't make people optimistic either.

Tamas

>As an eyewitness on the streets of Budapest in 1956, I have a very strong
>opinion of "historians" who professionally misrepresent the Hungarian
>Revolution in 1956. It wasn't a "Socialist Revolution", my friends and
>fellow countrymen
>died in heroic bloody fights *against communism*". Thus, I'd like to
>remind readers of Hungary that perhaps it is not by mere accident that she
>elects to "ignore" her infamous treachery of Freedom Fighters. (To make it
>worse, she kind of 'consciously ignores' the issue, another telling
>oxymoron, similar to a 'socialist revolution' in a socialist country)
>
  [Dr.Andras Pellionisz]

The Revolution of 1956 was both a revolution and a fight for independence.
The government of Imre Nagy was hoping to create a democratic socialist
country; so Ms. Balogh, in my opinion, is correct in part. However, there
were people who were not interested in the establishment of maintenance of
any kind of socialist or communist state. The peasantry, that is the
majority of the population of Hungary at that time, preferred private
property and democracy of some kind. The middle classes outside of power
hated the regime and were interested in restoration - and so was the
Catholic Church. The workers were upset that they were told that they ruled
the country when in fact they did not. In 1956 they wanted to take charge
of the factories via the Workers' Councils. I would say they were
anarchist-socialists. The revolutions was more anti-Soviet than
anti-socialist for most of the population.
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

>Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 20:23 +0100
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>Date:         Mon, 11 Sep 1995 15:13:34 -0400
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>From: "Peter I. Hidas" >
>Subject:      Re: Let's be truthful, Ms. Balogh!
>To: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
>Apparently-To: 
>
>>As an eyewitness on the streets of Budapest in 1956, I have a very strong
>>opinion of "historians" who professionally misrepresent the Hungarian
>>Revolution in 1956. It wasn't a "Socialist Revolution", my friends and
>>fellow countrymen
>>died in heroic bloody fights *against communism*". Thus, I'd like to
>>remind readers of Hungary that perhaps it is not by mere accident that she
>>elects to "ignore" her infamous treachery of Freedom Fighters. (To make it
>>worse, she kind of 'consciously ignores' the issue, another telling
>>oxymoron, similar to a 'socialist revolution' in a socialist country)
>>
>  [Dr.Andras Pellionisz]
>
>The Revolution of 1956 was both a revolution and a fight for independence.
>The government of Imre Nagy was hoping to create a democratic socialist
>country; so Ms. Balogh, in my opinion, is correct in part. However, there
>were people who were not interested in the establishment of maintenance of
>any kind of socialist or communist state. The peasantry, that is the
>majority of the population of Hungary at that time, preferred private
>property and democracy of some kind. The middle classes outside of power
>hated the regime and were interested in restoration - and so was the
>Catholic Church. The workers were upset that they were told that they ruled
>the country when in fact they did not. In 1956 they wanted to take charge
>of the factories via the Workers' Councils. I would say they were
>anarchist-socialists. The revolutions was more anti-Soviet than
>anti-socialist for most of the population.
>Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
>
>Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

>

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

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