Sorry about disturbing this forum, Paul, I my mail is rejected !

Would this mean, that if you are an expert in your field, than
your view cannot be disputed - or discussed - by anyone else
but a similar expert?
My question is, is it false what I've learned in school, that
in the time of king Matyas Hungary was in the same level of develop-
ment as the west?



>
> A few minutes ago I wrote a very brief note, basically addressed to Tom Breed
> which simply said I have no desire to continue this conversation about the
> Great Moravian Empire or about East European backwardness. Then I deleted it.
> Not that I wish to continue this conversation in the manner it is
> proceeding--I don't. But I think I ought to explain to Tom Breed why my
> patience is running out.
>
> Unfortunately, I have to start again with his total lack of knowledge of
> either Hungarian or East European history. It is impossible to discuss a
> topic with someone who doesn't seem to know the most basic things about it. I
> can't quite believe my eyes that Tom Breed is arguing with me about the
> relative economic backwardness of Eastern Europe!!!! Let me repeat it again,
> this is a commonplace assumption with a huge literature on the subject. One
> could argue in what manner did this economic and social backwardness manifest
> itself, but doubting the validity of the statement shows total unfamiliarity
> with the area. And that's O.K. One doesn't have to be an expert on the
> history of Eastern Europe, but then, please don't try to teach me East
> European history because you are not qualified to do so. I am always willing
> to discuss the pros and cons of East European history but only with those who
> show some knowledge of the facts. I don't quite know what Tom Breed's field
> is but I don't think that he would be terribly happy if someone with absolute
l
> y no knowledge of the area would lecture and correct him on every point.
> Neither do I.
>
> Eva Balogh

I don't think there is a word "magyarozni" is there?
I thought perhaps "magyarositani"?
It does show a way of thinking, language does.
Why do you think the English "earn"  (gain by merit, deserve)
their money, while Hungarians "keres"  (look for it) all the time?



>
> >Paul wrote
> >
> >P>emil wrote:
> >>
> >E>>Seems to me that a language which has NO WORD for
> >E>>"explain" has many other deep problems than to get sucked into minor
> >>
> >P>Doesn't 'megmagyarazni' mean to explain?
> >>
> >P>Paul
> >
> >Yes, but literally it means "to render hungarian", which still must say
> >something about how we think.
> >
> >Tibor
> >
>
> Tibor,
>
>    Now, this is taxing even my patience. This is outdoing Imi
> Bokor's *dictionariness*.
>
>    "To render Hungarian" would be "magyarozni", not "magyaraz-
> ni". But I will assume that this was a slip. And please talk
> for yourself when you are talking about strange *thought
> processes*.
>
>    Otherwise - have a great day,
>
>                                     Amos

On Tue, 17 Jan 1995 08:05:58 +1000 George Antony said:
>
>If one would to accept the Duna Intercontinental price as a benchmark,
>certainly.  Note that the new asking price had another hotel thrown in
>as a sweetener, the Hotel Budapest, ugly 1970s constructions, probably
>not the fanciest inside, but in a good location.
>
--By any chance, do you happen to know if the Hotel Platanus was one
of the hotels in the original package?  I ask because that was one of
seven in a small chain that was for sale in 1991.  If it and its
sisters were in the package, then the price becomes more understandable.

Charles

>
> Eva Durant writes:
> > If the proletar dictatorship includes ALL PROLETARS actively,
> And if they do no want to

Than it is not a proletar-dictatorship. Thank you.

> > lovely wither. And this is still not utopia, should happen in
> > 20 years or we all had it.
>
> Wanna bet?
>
> Jeliko

Now that is a capitalist! Putting me in a no-win situation.
OK, I really wouldn't mind your win, I want a peaceful and good
life for my children, believe it or not. Evaluation of the facts
as they are convince me - small chance if things go on without a
quantitative change...

> >
> --Well, as near as I can figure out, your new approach involves
> economic and political self-determination.  Sounds like the
> free enterprise system in a republic.  I support that.
>

- not possible on the base of private property. If you
are forced to work for somebody else, you can't be
self-determinating...

> of Tony Scargill, too, aren't you?

Well, he was vindicated totally about his forcast about the tories'
intention of closing down most mines. He was called a liar by
the media here, investigated for fraud - never found guilty in
anything, but no apologies. Him, Benn and the Beast of Bolsover
are the only politicians with some integrity around here.


>
> >So I take the press is democratic in the US, and everybody
> >has a chance to be
> >well-informed by all points of view without any effort.
> >I take a note.
>
> --No, one does have to subscribe to a paper!  And turn on the
> television set.  They don't come to the house like town criers.
> >

I know. US media is perfect and giving an unbiased view on
every important issue to your everage person, therefore you
have a well-informed opinionated populace. That's why they
are kidnapped so often by aliens, they want the latest info...


>
> --Unfortunately, there was more to it than peace and love.  There
> was the so-called sexual revolution that conned a lot of women into
> providing a guy with a relationship with no obligation on his part and
> the recreational use of downright dangerous drugs.
>
Meaning: women shouldn't leave unwanted relationships... That
should be man's prerogative as ever before...
Still more people used and are using the  downright dangerous drug
called alcohol. Drugs would be not propagated if it wasn't
a lucrative moneymaker as I said repeatedly and being ignored
repeatedly.

>
> --At least it is worthwhile to try to make choices among alternatives
> rather than to leave it up to others.
>

What alternatives?






> >So what do they do?
>
> --Besides investing in a business, they generally provide social
> insurance.  Being covered by Old Age, Survivors, Disability, and
> Health Insurance, I will not be poor in my old age.  I also have
> a generous pension plan provided by my employer.  And I have lived
> simply and saved a few bucks.  Of course, I had a good job, because
> I took advantage of the educational opportunities that were available
> to me.  I worked up to 40 hours a week while I was at university, but
> that was a valuable part of the experience.  My grandfather was a poor
> dirt farmer.  My father worked in a tractor factory, because the farm
> got sold early in the century when my grandfather died young.  And I
> worked my way to an education.  Why, Eva, I AM the American dream.
> Not only that, I'm pretty cute too.
>
> Charles


I took similar advantages, and am still poor. (Don't worry still being
fairly happy and not after your swimming pool) What is your point?
Perhaps I am just not cute enough. Sorry. Can you tell me, that
the system is geared for everybody to become so privilaged?
The tendency is not so. Please give up the falacy, that if you smart and
diligent you make it. Happens sometimes, but mostly if you were born
in the right place and at the right time. You just make people feel
bad saying it is their own fault, only as much as being born with a
given colour of skin...

Hello there!

This is James Wheal.  I'm a high school junior who is a Hungarian freak.
I love their culture, music, everything!

If you are in Hungary or can put me in touch with a Hungarian please
E-mail me at:  
Or
Respond to this thread.
Thanks!!

Hi,
  I am not sure if this is the place to post this but it is the only
  Hungarian UseNet area I have access to. I am looking to buy a Komondor
  but after a number of U.S. breaders promised me a dog and backed out
  I thought I might try to get one from Hungary. After all thats where
  Komondors are originally from. So if anyone knows any Komondor breaders
  that have or are expecting puppies could you please let me know there
  phone number. Many thanks...
                             Jason Hatfield, (Voice 902-755-6036)
                                             (Nova Scotia, Canada).

Tibor Benke writes:

  The guild system got along without grades, and
> I don't think civilization, such as it is, would be in danger.
IMHO, judgement by your peers is a lot more strict than the one by current
grade givers. If anything the guilds were far more strict than today's
academia.


> BTW my name is BENKE. That's LABORFALVI BENKE TIBOR, if that means
anything
> to you.
Sorry, the miswrite was not intentional.


> Just to return to HUNGARY, (lest I be rebuked yet again for straying off
> topic) and while, speaking of evaluations, I read in MOSAIC that Soros's
> Central European (Cyber?) University got accredited.  What does this
mean?
> What are the grades worth?  What would it cost an admittedly stupid
person
> with a B.A. working on an M.A. off an on for three years, to go there?
> Would such a person even be admitted?  Especially if s/he has  serious
> reservations about the fundamentally democratic nature of actually
existing
> capitalism?

Sometimes, spending some time in a socialist country, is the best cure for
what seems to be ailing you.

> Tibor Benke   (who is cognitively challanged and started College in 1964,
> but earned his university B.A only by 1988)

Its not how long it takes it what you get out of it that counts.

Regards,Jeliko

Eva Balogh writes:
>
>By all economic indicators--if you want statistics I can suggest a book at
>least for the 19th century. Berend-Ranki wrote a nice little book about East
>European economic development and relative backwardness. They provided very
>detailed comparative figures.
>
>Otherwise Tibor completely misunderstands me. I am not saying that Hungarians
>were more barbaric than others or that their culture was inferior. I am
>simply saying that since they were late arrivals at a geographic area which
>historically was less developed than the western parts of Europe, they were
>economically, socially, and, yes, culturally, behind the west.
>


I don't believe much in statistics.  It might be math phobia, I still don't
know my standard deviation from my mean error and my eyes blurr out when I
see a frequency distribution table.  I share Sam Clemens' attitude, he
said: "There are lies, damned lies and statistics".  I believe you  that
economic indicators may show that Central Europe in general and Hungary in
particular was behind economicaly at all times from the tenth century to
the present.  But the reliability of these kinds of indicators is not
universaly accepted even when they apply to the present.  For example,
Canada is now experiencing a "jobless recovery" (and Charles talks of
doublespeak?).  What this means is that Canada's giant multinational banks
made unprecedented profits and the forest industry (the folks mowing down
ancient rainforests as fast as they can to turn giant trees into tissue
paper and newsprint) made unprecedented profits.   In general, GNP grew
some 3%. Official rates of unemployment (which vastly undercalculate the
actual number of those who have no work), however, continue to hover
between 9% and 13% with 20% or more in,  Newfoundland.   The average real
wage is way downfrom even a decade ago.  Supposedly, there was no inflation
this year; nevertheless, if your "basket of goods and services" is
different from what Stats Can uses you might experience a rise in your cost
of living, as I have.  Projecting these kinds of differences backwsards in
history is chancy. Was the ordinary Frankish serf better off then one of
Lehel's servants ?  Whose point of view do the indicators represent?

When I first went to college, back in '64, I was planning to be a history
teacher.  One of the requirements for a degree in history was to take two
courses in the social sciences in the first year.  I chose an anthropology
course, without knowing what it was, merely because it fit my schedule.  It
was here that  I was first introduced to the concept of methodological
cultural relativism.  At first it shocked me, but eventually I was
persuaded and decided to change my major by my second year because it
seemed to me that no historical understanding was possible without taking
the results of anthropology into account.  Since then to this day I resist
terms  like: 'advanced', 'bakward', 'civilized', 'primitive', etc.  as
unscientific and ideological.  Comparisons can be made on individual
culture traits but not on constellations such as 'culture,' or 'economic
development'.   Doing comparisons of economic development without paying
detailed attention to the actual processes of production, consumption and
exchange, and the categorization of the totality of human activity
including the division of labour and the distribution of wealth,  in a well
defined geographic area, leads to economistic cargo cultism.*   I have the
feeling that what is going on in Hungary now is precisely that, which is
why I am even arguing this.

Tibor

* Cargo cults are one of those 'strange' phenomena that are taught about in
introductory anthropology courses to dazzle the freshmen.  They arose in
the South Pacific (Karkar Island was the most famous) during and shortly
after  WW II.  A prophet would arise who would bring a message from the
ancestors about what needed to be done in order to obtain 'cargo' (trade
goods and canned food items the American millitary had brought and which
people liked).  First, an 'airport' had to be built.  Then the village had
to be rearranged into neat rectangular streets with neat rectangular houses
like the 'soldjah fellahs' had.  Finally, people had to get up early in the
morning and march in close order up and down on a 'parade ground'.  Pretty
soon the ancestors were supposed  to send the cargo.  The phenomenon is
interesting because it seems to have arisen independently on different
islands.  Taking local knowledge and the local traditional forms of
cultural innovation into account, this independent development is
unsuprising.   The natives saw the soldiers build an airport and set up a
camp and drill and the cargo came for them.   Obviously, it came from  from
their ancestors since humans couldn't possibly make goods like that from
scratch. If the 'white fellahs' could do that so could the islanders.  All
that was needed was for someone to have the traditional prophetic
experience that served to legitimate cultural innovation in that culture.
Lest we think that only 'primitives' are this silly, something no different
in principle took place in Newfoundland during the premiership of Joey
Smallwood (in the fifties).  It was called the resettlement programme and
was aimed at modernizing and restructuring the fishery industry.  Here too
the superficial characteristics: level of urbanization, size of
enterprises, degree of automation etc, of more developed economic
activities were immitated without taking into account either the details of
the actual modern processes nor the details of the lives of the fisherfolk.
 Calculations showed that if a fisherman worked six months a year on a
deepsea trawler/canner he could earn more then he could with a small boat
in the inshore fishery.  Government services (education, medical care, etc)
could be provided to a higher standard and for less money then in the
outports.  Among the neglected details were: the pricing mechanisms for cod
and the production in kind (backyard gardening, small livestock raising,
craft production of furniture and trade goods, sealing, etc.) of the
outport fisherfolk.     The other thing that was neglected, was the
sustainability of the cod stock.  The modernization program benefitted the
large trawler companies, but both the fish and the fisherfolk were
destroyed. The Stalinist industrialization programmes in Eastern Europe
have cargo cult like elements, as well as the privatization going on now.
Disaster results every time.  So much for progress.

Greetings from the Civic Education Project.  I spent a bit of time
this weekend getting our electronic house in order and wanted to let
you all in on the changes that we have made in the past couple of
months.

We are now hosting 5 public listservers that concentrate on Eastern
Europe, Russia and the NIS.  These lists cover subjects including
higher education, legal and economic reform, women's issues and job
announcements related to the region.  If there is sufficent interest
we would be willing to consider other topics as well.  Please
contact me if you know of a suitable topic.

The current lists are:

EELAW-L (legal reform in the region)
EEWOMEN-L (women's issues in the region)
EEECON-L (economic transition in the region)
EEJOBS-L (job announcements in/about the region)
EEHED-L (higher education in the region)

The first four lists are running on our own site.  They are running
on new software that is still undergoing changes so the commands are
a little different.  To sign up send mail to
 that says:

SUB TheListName YourFirstName YourLastName

The only catch is that that line must be in the _Subject_ of the
message. Messages to the list go to .

The remaining list is the Eastern European Higher Education list
(EEHED-L). It focuses on higher education in the region.  The list is
hosted by Yale University and is running on normal LISTSERV software.
To subscribe send mail to  that has
in the _body_ of the message:

SUB EEHED-l YourFirstName YourLastName

If you have any questions about any of these list please contact
me at 

Chris Owen
Program Officer
Civic Education Project

Civic Education Project is an international not-for-profit
organization devoted to the strengthening of democracy in Eastern
Europe and the former Soviet Union through the revitalization of the
social sciences in universities and institutes of higher education.
Through its visiting professor program, CEP sends Western-trained
scholars to teach and advise at universities in Albania, Bosnia,
Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland, Romania, Russia, Slovakia and Ukraine.

For more information about CEP, send mail to 

---
Civic Education Project       
P.O. Box 5445 Yale Station    http://www.cis.yale.edu/~cep/cep.html
New Haven, CT  06520          ftp://capstan.cis.yale.edu/pub/civic-education/

Tibor Benke writes:
business
> men and women who usually own some franchise business and work 70 hours a

Now you give examples of your "robber capitalists"? I thought
according to you these guys did not exist.

Jeliko

Tibor Benke writes:

> fekete and kre'mes (espresoso and napoleon [aproximate translation]) at
the
> bistro just down the street, I knew my homeland was doomed.  Give me the
> mutton, it's real food at least!

One mutton with kremes coming up.

Regards,Jeliko

Tibor Benke writes:
> Unca' Karl refuted this  BS in his writings on "primitive accumulation"
> more then a hundred years ago, and this has nothing to do with the
success
> or failure of the asiatic* despotic state known as the USSR.

Obviously, because there was no private capital accumulation in unca Joe's
practical application of Unca Karl's theories.

In the US several million new busineses are started each year, your Unca
Karl is probably turning is his grave because of the popularity of
capitalism.
I am willing to bet that there are far more capitalists in the US than
communists (by orders of magnitude). Lot's of them fail also in the first
few years, because there is more to it than either the leftists or the
ignorants assume.

 Since then,
> there has been much written on the topic, think of the history of the
poll
> tax in British East Africa or see _The Fur Trade in Canada_ by H.A.
Innis,
> (Who was a Canadian conservative economic historian and not just another
> commie).  It occasionaly happens that capital is built up by savings and
> astute investment and also by invention and luck, but in the vast
majority
> of cases, it is gained by robbery in one form or another, (Vide: Kennedy,
That is sheer BS.

> Rockefeller, Carnegie, etc.- they weren't called 'robber barons' for
> nothin')  .
What time frame are you looking at. Please do not get stuck in the past.

>I've never taken anything that wasn't due me according to the
> actual rules in effect, nor do I want anything but everyone off my back.

Are you intimidating that I did?

> Anyway,  I was just trying to point to the correct definition in a
humorous
> way and said nothing about exploitation.  But speaking of exploitation,
> self exploitation contributes just as much to alienation as exploiting
> others, thus I think it is time we stopped encouraging it socially.
(Check
> out, "Dear Landlord" and "I Pity the Poor Immigrant" by Robert Zimmerman
> (aka Bob Dylan).

I do not have to read what other's say to know how I feel. Yes, I am
alienating myself from ideas that I do not have to work for my living.

> *I am alluding to the asiatic mode of production and oriental despotism,
> which I think is the true reason for the failure of actualy existing
> socialism (cf: Konrad and Szelenyi  _The Intellectuals' Road to Class
Power
> in Eastern Europe_, which explains both that and the current clumsy
efforts
> by the pigs to wear shirts 'n ties and eat bacon with forks and knives).

Relevance?

Regards,Jeliko

>Sorry, in my experience, anyone who is  interested in
>conserving racial differences, has - perhaps not
>knowingly - an idea of some supremacy.
>I think I meant the Norb character, not you, though
>it was last week - I can't really remember.

        You may apologize at your earliest convenience--I have not taken part
in this thread, and more importantly, I have never stated anything on this list
which could lead you to believe that I'm a racist (or that I'm a "character"
for that matter--that label is much more appropriate for all those "historians"
on this list who endlessly pontificate but can't demonstrate a reading knowlege
of history beyond the Marxist rubbish they picked up in highschool).

        Norb

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Among the mail waiting for me after a delayed return to the internet was
an announcement that the distinguished American historian of Eastern Europe,
Barbara Jelavich, died on 15 January after a lengthy struggle with cancer.

Together with her spouse Charles, she contributed greatly to the development
of US studies of the region, especially in history.  She also helped estab-
lish the reputation of Indiana University as a premier US location for
East European studies.  She will be sorely missed.

R.I.P.!

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Charles Atherton asked:

>--By any chance, do you happen to know if the Hotel Platanus was one
>of the hotels in the original package?  I ask because that was one of
>seven in a small chain that was for sale in 1991.  If it and its
>sisters were in the package, then the price becomes more understandable.

I have no idea.  Is/was it part of the Hungarhotels company ?  If yes,
possibly, if not, probably no.

Eva Balogh may be better informed on that: the HVG may have a list.

George Antony

Small furnished Budapest apartment to let: 1 living room, 1 small bedroom,
small kitchen, bathroom, 36 sq meters, parking in closed courtyard.  Central
heating (ta1vfu3te1s), hot water.  Located in U1jlipo1tva1ros (Va1g utca, 5
minutes walk from station on blue subway line) in seventies-style highrise
(10th floor). NO PHONE. Rent: Ft 22,000/mo (approx USD 200/mo) plus common
charges (so far Ft 5,000/mo, but with the new energy prices likely to go up
to cca 7,500/mo). Available immediately: in the US call (408) 969-2636,
in Hungary call (36-1) 135-4231 or send email to 
and/or to 

Andra1s Kornai