Dan Pop > wrote:
>
>You just shot yourself in the foot.  "Lacatus" is locksmith in Romanian
>and the others might be very good examples of ethnic Romanians with
>magyarized names.

Mamma mia, is "lakatos" another of those words we borrowed from Romanian?
And here I was thinking it was the other way around.

> There are plenty of examples of ethnic Romanians
>named Farcas or Farcasu or Farcasiu, the best known being Dumitru Farcasu.

And what does that word mean in Romanian?  For "Farkas" means "Wolf" in
Hungarian and is a very common family name.

>And it's interesting to learn that Nadia Comaneci is a romanized Hungarian
>;-)

Actually, it's been a kind of rumor a long time that she was of Chango
background with original name of Kemenes.  She obviously considers
herself Romanian though.  But then that would be expected from Romanized
Hungarians, anyway.  Oh, BTW, ...  we do consider the Changos of
Hungarian (or rather Szekely) origin even though in their centuries old
isolation they are at an advanced stage of assimilation.
>
>It's intolerance to imbecility.

And I can only admire your social manners.

Joe

In article > T.M.Lutas,
 writes:
>As for UDMR v. PRM/PUNR I think that there are some surface similarities
>that merit contrasting such as the simple fact that all three parties are
>based on ethnic lines, which I don't like much.

I don't think you are right. The real problem is that the ethnic flavour
of politics because of acute problems exist on national level where it
should not.

>They all tend to focus on
>ethnic instead of ideological and economic explanations for problems
>which I also do not agree with.

The lines of Hungarian minority's  engagement in politics will change
considerably when this autonomy-whatever stuff will be solved. Then
it will sink back to regional level. I agree on however that Hungarians
tactically should be concentrate more on individual rights of freedom,
they would profit a lot from the decentralization of the gov't. It seems
to me that they want privileges without getting those fundamental in-
dividual rights of liberal democracy in which they would share their
goals with the majority.
Anyway this style of politics is not against the past. In the old Tran-
silvania the politics always went for privileges, they try to follow the
old lines but it does not seem to work too effectively. It is difficult
to leave old pathes.

>Do you have a problem with this
>opinion that politics should not be ruled by ethnic divisions ?

Not at all, but as I expressed above, the recent situation  is not the
fault of the minority.  The initiative is not and never was on their
side. 
And I don't think that the Romanian liberals has a big chance without
a good compromise with the minorities. A strongly ethnical polariza-
tion of national politics  will always make a  good excuse to the na-
tional right to gain ground and block the liberals. For an ethnic  Hun-
garian politician an uncompromising  liberal political line  is much
worse than the recent  nationalistic, because the latter keeps the Hun-
garians tightly together. So if you want them on your side you
have to offer something otherwise they will nicely  mess up your
plans.

Tamás

TU Vienna  > wrote:
>
>Tekintettel az immar a honapok ota kulonbozo helyekre ellenem folyamatosan
>erkezo feljelento levelekre, gondoltam kozzeteszek egyet. Ugyan megfogadtam, 
>addig nem teszem kozze, amig a harag el nem szall szivembol. Ebben a konkret
>esetben ez megtortent.
>
>Mivel ezen feljelentesek kapcsolatban allnak a HAL-on es a HL-en, de reszben
>az SCM-en valo aktivitasommal, azert ugy gondolom, jo ha tudnak rola.
>
> ...
>
>egyik kulfoldon tartozkodo senior kolleganktol a kovetkezo kerdest kaptuk:
>
>... Ki ez az Odor Tibor, aki az intezetbol allandoan
>.......... fasiszta szovegeket kuld a neccre, ......
>Azert ez mar megis csak tulzas! Marmint hogy
>ezt az intezetbol teheti! Egyaltalan ott dolgozik? ....

Ugy latszik amiota a regi pufajkasokbol "business" ruhaba oltozott
bolsik ulnek ismet a hatalomban Pesten, a feljelentosdi is
ujrakezdodott.  Gondolom ugyanazok altal, akik addig tettek ezt.  Csak
hat most nem a partvonaltol, hanem a politikailag korrekt vonaltol valo
elteres a vad.  A szoveg szinte ugyanaz: "fasiszta" vagy, oregem!

Nem tudom, hogy ott hogy van ez, de ideat az embernek joga van
szembesulnie a vadlojaval.  Remelem te is megtudod, hogy ki is ez a
"senior kollegad", s kozze teszed nevet az Interneten.  Hadd tudja meg
mindenki, hogy kik is ezek az elegge el nem itelheto besugok, akik a
toluk kulonbozo velemenyek hordozoi ellen ilyen ocsmany eszkozokkel
harcolnak.  Az ilyen esetek is csak ujra alahuzzak azt a mulasztast,
amit Antall kovetett el a "nagytakaritas" kihagyasaval.  Remelem a
kovetkezo valasztason egy valodi, jobboldali kormany kerul hatalomra,
s bepotolja az MDF kormany tortenelmi mulasztasat, s akkor az ilyen
szemtlada besugok olyan helyre kerulnek, ahol nem arthatnak tobbet.

Egyebkent Tibor ezt ne ugy vedd most, hogy en minden irasoddal
egyetertettem.  Szerintem is neha tul lottel a celon.  Viszont ehhez
ugyanugy jogod van, mint azoknak, akik a masik iranyba teszik ugyanezt.

Pannon J.

Kedves Odor Ur,

Nincs itt egy kis logikai hiba?
Mit jelent a feljelentes, hogy valaki figyelmezteti az intezet 
vezetojet nezzen mar utana, mi is megy naluk?
Tenyleg a sajtoszabadsag vegromlasa lenne, ha egy intezet nem 
kivanna onnek ingyenes segitseget adni, es a nevevel tamogatni az 
on enyhenszolva megkerdojelezheto holitikai nezeteinek 
propagalasahoz?
A kollegak mind megtehetik csak on nem? Csunya - csunya bacsik!

Ne nevettesse ki magat Odor ur!

Szemelyszerint en sajnalnam ha kitiltanak mert mindig jol 
szorakozom a bohosagain, de ennek, mar megbocsat, semmi koze a 
sajtoszabadsaghoz.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article > Alexander Varias,
 writes:
>: So what would you consider a fair census for 1910 ?
>: Let say, would a three-page antropological test together
>: with DNA analysis have made you satisified ?    ;-)

>A comparison of religion and nationality is essential when 
>determining ethnicity in Austro-Hungarian censuses.

It seems to me you did not get what Adrian exactly said.
He said that who considered him/herself Hungarian but 
was of different (Romanian) origin was not Hungarian. I would
not like to go in details on what kinda politics is that when
someone wants to decide tha others ethnicity against their
will.  I don't think it was intentional he just has not thought
it over:

"Considering the neglect of Romanian education system in
Transylvania up to that time, even sincere answers of Ro-
manian  ethnics would gravitate towards Hungarian."

This behaviour also has nothing to do with educational system.
He later states and so contradicts to himself that the Jews
considered themselves Hungarian. Well, they used to be as a
very well-educated ethnic.......

Also, the ethnical composition of a town says nothing on
the whole picture, because:

- the segregation was considerable, there were towns having
Hungarian (Kolozsvár) , Saxon (Brasov), German (Timisuara)
and  Romanian (???)  majority, there is no point to draw con-
clusions from the distribution of a single town

- the Romanians were mostly village dwellers anyway

On your comment on "comparison of religion and nationality"
I say that, AFAIK, the religion also were asked, so you may
examine that as well, but I can not supply them because they
are not included in my book. 

Tamás

T. Kocsis wrote:
|| 
|| In article > George Barac,
||  writes:
|| > Weeeeeell, isn't that awfully nice?
|| 
|| Dear Gyuri von Brassow,
|| 
|| [__]
|| 
|| On the other side, in your interpretation it seems as though
|| the Austro-Hungarian empire biggest problem would have
|| been the Romanian question of Erdely. This is not true. That time
|| Romania was an insignificant  little asian country somewhere
|| behind the Carpathians not long before just a dirty turkish
|| fiefdom. 

Atta superb description! A stylistic tidbit!

|| No one cared of Romanians because they were so
|| unimportant and harmless from the empire's point of view.

Then why did the K&K gov't (along with Ferenc Joska) oppose Moldavia's & 
Walachia's fusion around 1859?

And what the heck had they looked for in some parts of that Turkish fiefdom hun
dred 
years earlier? --> Northern Moldavia aka Bukowina or Buchenland and Oltenia (fo
r 
around 30 years).

|| Tamas

g

George responds to Tamas:.

>|| On the other side, in your interpretation it seems as though
>|| the Austro-Hungarian empire biggest problem would have
>|| been the Romanian question of Erdely. This is not true. That time
>|| Romania was an insignificant  little asian country somewhere
>|| behind the Carpathians not long before just a dirty turkish
>|| fiefdom. 
>|| No one cared of Romanians because they were so
>|| unimportant and harmless from the empire's point of view.

>Then why did the K&K gov't (along with Ferenc Joska) oppose Moldavia's & 
>Walachia's fusion around 1859?

Starting with the early 18th century the Romanians of Transylvania
were in fact a major concern for the leading Habsburg statesmen. Thus,
Leopold I and his advisers had long recognized the importance of
Romanians as a  means of checking the centrifugal tendencies of the
Hungarians. This is why the  initiative for a Uniate Church in
Transylvania came from the court of Vienna.

At the end of the 19th century "the insignificant little asian
country" was not considered by Vienna neither unimportant nor
harmless. In 1883, following Romania's dissatisfaction with the
unpopular treaty of Berlin, Bucharest searched a defensive alliance
with Germany. It was only because of Habsburg's persuasion that
Bismark insisted that the primary understanding, to which Germany
adhered, should be with Vienna.

Moreover, at the end of the Balkan Wars, Romania's position strongly
improved as prestige and strategic position,  German diplomats urged
on Vienna to ameliorate the position of the Romanians in Transylvania,
the national conflict in that area being the major disagreement
between Romania and her allies and the reason for which the Romanian
government had begun to separate itself from the Triple Alliance.
Acknowledging the severity of the problem, Bertchtold, the Habsburg
foreign minister, sent Ottokar Czernin, a prominent Habsburg
statesman, to Bucharest, and put pressure on the Hungarian government
to begin negotiations with the Romanian National Party of
Transylvania. Unfortunately for the Habsburgs, as commented by the
British representative in Budapest, the few concessions made by the
Hungarian government "amounted to nothing."

Therefore, one can easily conclude that the Habsburg empire was paying
considerable attention to Romania. Actually, several historians, such
as Paul Schroder and Barbara Jelavich, have considered that the part
which concerned the Romanian affairs played a major role in
influencing the Habsburg decision to settle the 1914 Serbian challenge
once and for all, at all costs. In the long run, the cost was
tremendous, especially for Hungary, and the blame belongs entirely to
the Hungarian leadership and its unwillingness to sacrifice the
narrow-minded idea of a homogeneous Hungarian state. There is a vital
lesson here to be learned for present-day Romanian leaders.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

Further info on broadcast material available on the net included below
(notice that this does not contain www.voa.gov). I am appending this to
the archive <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/HU-broadcast.txt>;. Notice
that these are also available at the HAL archives
<ftp://mineral.umd.edu/pub/hungary/docs/North_Am_Hun_Language_Broadcasts> and
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/ftp/docs/North_Am_Hun_Language_Broadcasts>;,
with more under <http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/Entertainment/>;. 

 Thanks Andy and Peter!

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
KC2: (NAME_WITHELD+)X2 (Grubor+)*2 (Fomin+++)/3 (cjames++)*3
     Iatskovski-+ (Petersen--)/2
Personal PGP: 0x3B339A21 = AF 35 25 A2 FA 65 AC E5  48 91 AD 42 6C 84 4B 05

+From:  (A.J.Vadasz)
+Subject: HAL: Magyar Radio .
+Sender: 
+
+In a May 14 message, I reported (in part):
+
+> their current 9870 kHz will change to 9840 kHz starting May.21. Not clear
+>whether the change is for the entire 3 hour transmission (including
+>Hungarian and English language programs). 
+
+More recently the new arrangement has been posted on the "Radio Budapest"
+webpage: http://www.eunet.hu/radio/   To summarize. the North America beam
+is broadcast on 9840 and 11870 kHz with the following breakdown
+
+Starting time (UTC)     Language    Beam orientation
+00:00                   Hungarian    N.America East
+01:00                   English      N.America East
+01:30                   Hungarian    N.America West
+02:30                   English      N.America West
+
+In my area (Northern Virginia) the first two segments have been fair to good
+on 9840 kHz. HAL members are ancouraged to post their listening experiences
+for each others' benefit, as well as for Magyar Radio/ Antenna Hungaria.
+
+Audio via the web. Using "realaudio" (RA) Hungarian broadcasts seem to be
+available at the following sites:
+
+http://www.wrn.org/stations/hungary.html  :
+   English language newscast(Radio Budapest) of 10 minutes.
+   Hungarian language (Szulofoldunk) for 29 minutes.  Both of these are
+playbacks of tapings made starting at UTC 07:00 When "clicking" on RA  
+   icon, the recorded material is played back
+
+http://www.petofi.enet.hu/reala.html
+   This is simulcast (not recording) of Petofi Radio as it is played "on the
+air" at time of retrieval. (It is continuous). Program info. available
+from the above webpage.
+
+Concerning "real audio", info on technical requirements, downloadable
+software etc available on http://www.realaudio.com
+
+Good listening.  Andy.
+
+
+A.J. Vadasz
+5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
+Warrenton VA 22186
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

+USA T:540 349 1408

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQBVAwUBMa3udcQ/4s87M5ohAQFQ0QH/TtprEOg3PbLDoQy9FNNc0CLUIkwSdVOV
kqqj8tZ/LhDUSDzMSh7lkedQAAX1Q7j+Sff/O6mv0dwMK6GYvAvXiQ==
=LHr3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

In article >,
T. Kocsis  > wrote:
| In article > Alexander Varias,
|  writes:
| >: So what would you consider a fair census for 1910 ?
| >: Let say, would a three-page antropological test together
| >: with DNA analysis have made you satisified ?    ;-)
| 
| >A comparison of religion and nationality is essential when 
| >determining ethnicity in Austro-Hungarian censuses.
| 
| It seems to me you did not get what Adrian exactly said.
| He said that who considered him/herself Hungarian but 
| was of different (Romanian) origin was not Hungarian. I would
| not like to go in details on what kinda politics is that when
| someone wants to decide tha others ethnicity against their
| will. 


[...]

I agree... unfortunately extremists on the Romanian and
Hungarian side seem to be in agreement of an opposite
opinion. Just goes to show how similar Toth Judit is to 
Romanian extremists.

Istvan

The Washington Folk Festival will be held on June 1 through June 2=20
in Glen Echo Park, MD from Saturday through Sunday;

Folk traditions (music, dance, food) of over 100 nationalities will be
displayed, among them the Hungarian, on the 2nd of June (Sunday), from
16:00 - 17:00 @ the Spanish Ballroom;

The Hungarian program will be similar to a Tanc Haz one: live music
provided by the Washington based Tisza Ensemble, free style
(improvisation) dance for those who know the dances, and also dances=20
will be tought in circles led by Tisza members;

Directions: Washington Capital Beltway (I 495), River Road (to=20
Washington) exit, right at the traffic light on Goldsboro Road, Goldsboro=
=20
dead ends into MacArthur Blvd, should find parking somewhere in the=20
meantime, the Glen Echo Park is on the East side of MacArthur Blvd.;

It is possible that there is free shuttle buses from the Bethesda metro=20
station, but you should check the newspaper for that information;=20

 Hope to you there!

=DCdv=F6zlettel,

=C1rpad F=E1bi=E1n Kov=E1cs
--
WWW                : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kovacs
personal email     : 

In >  () writes:

>Dan Pop > wrote:
>>
>>You just shot yourself in the foot.  "Lacatus" is locksmith in Romanian
>>and the others might be very good examples of ethnic Romanians with
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>>magyarized names.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Mamma mia, is "lakatos" another of those words we borrowed from Romanian?
>And here I was thinking it was the other way around.

Who borrowed the word from whom is irrelevant.  The point is that Lacatus
and Lacatusu are Romanian names (related to a Romanian common noun)
that can be easily found all over Romania, hence using them to "prove"
the romanization theory is plain stupid.

>> There are plenty of examples of ethnic Romanians
>>named Farcas or Farcasu or Farcasiu, the best known being Dumitru Farcasu.
>
>And what does that word mean in Romanian?  For "Farkas" means "Wolf" in
>Hungarian and is a very common family name.

You didn't follow the argumentation, did you?  The name of an ancestor
was Lupu (a common Romanian name, derived from "lup", which is wolf in
Romanian), then it was magyarized to Farkas, then Farkas was
transliterated to Romanian as Farcas, because its owner was Romanian.
At Bucharest University I had one Romanian colleague named Farcas and
one (Transylvanian) Hungarian colleague named Farkas.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

 wrote:
> 
> Johanne L. Tournier  > wrote:
> 
> >A very intelligent response, Joe. I have seen a copy of baptismal records
> >from the Banat, in which a Slavic-sounding last names were tranliterated
> >into Germanic-style names. Would it be correct to infer from that that there
> >was forced Germanicization of the peoples in the area? I doubt it.

Possible immigrants from Silesia... ;-)

> Why, thank you, Johanne!  As you no doubt must have seen, our Romanian
> friends do not necessarily share your opinion.  They are a
> hard-to-please bunch.  No matter how hard I try. ;-)

"Perseverare..., perseverare" (diabolicum ;-)

> But for what it's worth, I, too, enjoy your posts in the Hungary list.
> 
> Regards,
> Joe Pannon

szia,
g

Contrary to the conventional wisdom that would have us believe meaning
is lost in translation, the following illustrates a situation in which
several passes through the filters of intra-lingual syntax and
entendre have served to distill the true essence of that which was
communicated; demonstrating a richness of subtlety and nuance that
would not otherwise have been possible. 
**********************************************************************
While Madonna was in Hungary filming her latest magnum opus, Evita,
she was interviewed by the Budapest newspaper Blikk.  Questions in
Hungarian were translated into English and asked of Madonna, whose
replies were then translated back into Hungarian for consumption by
her Budapestian fans.  Shortly after publication, USA Today requested
that the entire interview be translated back into English.  This is
the result.

Blikk:
Madonna, Budapest says hello with arms that are spread-eagled.  Did
you have a visit here that was agreeable?  Are you in good odor?  You
are the biggest fan of our young people who hear your musical
productions and like to move their bodies in response.

Madonna:
Thank you for saying these complements [holds up hands].  Please stop
with taking sensationalist photographs until I have removed my
garments for all to see [laughs].  This is a joke I have made.

Blikk:
Madonna, let's cut toward the hunt:  Are you a bold hussy-woman that
feasts on men who are toys?

Madonna:
Yes, yes, this is certainly something that brings to the surface my
longings.  In America it is not considered to be mentally ill when a
woman advances on her prey in a discotheque setting with hardy
cocktails present.  And there is more normal attitude toward leather
play-toys that also makes my day.

Blikk:
Is this how you met Carlos, your love-servant who is reputed?  Did you
know he was heaven-sent right off the stick?  Or were you dating many
other people in your bed at the same time?

Madonna:
No he was the only one I was dating in my bed then, so it is
scientific fact that the baby was made in my womb using him.  But as
regards these questions, enough!  I am a woman and not a test-mouse!
Carlos is an everyday person who is in the orbit of a star who is
being muscle-trained by him, not as a sex machine.

Blikk:
May we talk with you about your other `baby,' your movie, then?
Please do not be denying that the similarities between you and the
real Evita are grounded in basis.  Power, money, tasty food, Grammys -
all these elements are afoot.

Madonna:
What is up in the air with you?  Evita never was winning a Grammy!

Blikk:
Perhaps not.  But as to your film, in trying to bring your reputation
along a rocky road, can you make people forget the bad explosions of
Who's That Girl? and Shanghai Surprise?

Madonna:
I am a tip-top starlet.  That is my job that I am paid to do.

Blikk:
O.K., here's a question from left space: What was your book Slut
about?

Madonna:
It was called Sex, my book.

Blikk:
Not in Hungary.  Here it was called Slut.  How did it come to publish?
Were you lovemaking with a man-about-town printer?  Do you prefer
making suggestive literature to fast-selling CDs?

Madonna:
These are different facets to my career highway.  I am preferring to
become respected all over the map as a 100% artist.

Blikk:
There is much interest in you from this geographic region, so I must
ask this final questions:  How many Hungarian men have you dated in
bed?  Are they No. 1?  How are they comparing to Argentine men, who
are famous for being tip-top as well?

Madonna:
Well, to avoid aggravating global tension, I would say it's a tie
[laughs].  No, no, I am serious now.  See here, I am working like a
canine all the way around the clock!  I have been too busy even to try
the goulash that makes your country one for the record books.

Blikk:
Thank you for your candid chitchat.

Madonna:
No problem, friend who is a girl.

Date: Sat, 11 May 96 18:23:01 GMT
From: Eo Flame FAQ admin >
Message-ID: >



               THE ESPERANTO FLAMEWAR FAQ


INTRODUCTION


Your newsgroup has been lucky enough to benefit from a 
crossposted flame war about Esperanto, a planned language 
aimed at easing international communication and increasing 
Usenet traffic. 

These flames tend to be lengthy and revolve around about 
eight arguments and associated counter-arguments, so here 
is a summary of these arguments so that you may avoid 
wasting your employer's money or failing to finish your 
thesis on schedule by repeating them one more time.

This FAQ is in the public domain, please distribute freely.


ARGUMENTS

(The arguments begin with the point against (-) Esperanto, 
followed by the argument for (+) Esperanto; simply read them 
the other way round if you are against Esperanto.)


-1. Esperanto is dead.

+1. Esperanto has 10 million speakers. (Well, it may 
have only 50000, but it definitely has some; look at 
soc.culture.esperanto and the web pages if you're not 
convinced.)


-2. A language with a simplified grammar cannot be 
expressive enough to do real literature and poetry.

+2. Yes, for instance English has no word gender, no 
inflections and extremely simplified conjugations, so 
that's why English will never have any literature. 
Real literature is written in German and Latin.


-3. You can't plan languages.

+3. Ask speakers of modern Hebrew, Nynorsk, Indonesian, 
etc.


-4. Everyone speaks English.

+4. You probably live in cloud cuckoo land. Simply try 
to discuss about something remotely challenging with 
normal people in a country where English is not the 
native language, or, more simply, read the messages of 
most non-natives (if any) taking part in the last Usenet 
flame, and weep.


-5. Esperanto will kill other languages.

+5. Esperantists want a second language for everybody 
so that we can then spend time using various national 
and local languages on their own merits instead of 
spending decades failing to master English.


-6. These Esperantists are fanatics, thinking they hold 
the Truth, and they are not even open to the idea of using 
other planned languages.

+6. Indeed, quite a few esperantists are like that, especially 
those who take part in the Esperanto flames. Nevertheless, 
there are also Esperantists, rauxmistoj, who don't care about 
Esperanto becoming a universal second language and simply want 
to enjoy, now, an interesting and efficient language that allows 
them to meet strange people from all over the world.


-7. English is the language of business.

+7. Maybe, but capitalism sucks anyway. There's more to life 
than shopping and working (outside the USA at least).


-8. Everything on the Internet is in English.

+8. There are millions of Web pages and thousands of Usenet 
news groups in other languages; you could surf full-time 
reading only material in, say, German. The fact that your 
local news server doesn't have news groups in other languages 
may be related to the fact you live in an English speaking 
country.