In article >,  says...
>
>Hi y'all,
>
>Count Agoston Haraszthy, from the southern Balaton area, was,
apparently,
>one of the founders of the modern Californian wine industry. In 1856 he
>founded the Buena Vista Winery in Sonoma Valley, California. I visited
>the place last February, but does anyone know anything about this
>interesting chap? BTW did Haraszthy (or anyone else) try to keep any of
>the Hungarian wine making traditions alive when he migrated to the USA
>(I mean: is there something like an *American Tokaji*, or similar, these
>days)?
>
>Regards,
>
>George
>

--
I have visited that area 4 years ago and was also surprised to learn
about him.  So far I know nothing indicates that his wines have anything
to do with Hungary - even though he imported a lot of his original
grapes from Hungary.

My name is Andrew Revill. I am English. My girlfriend is a Hungarian Au
Pair, currently working in England.

I would like to be able to surprise her by cooking her a good Hungarian
meal for a special occasion, something that would really make her feel a
little more at home, but I don't have any recipes. Can anyone help me ? I
would be grateful for any individual recipes, or even better, details of
Hungarian cookery books (in English please, my Hungarian is not good !)
which I could get hold of in the UK.

I need recipes that can be prepared from ingredients readily available in
the UK. Aniko is a big chicken fan, but please no recipes for Gulyas or
Paprikas Csirke, she has already cooked these for me !

If anyone could help me, we would both really appreciate it. Thanks ...

--
Andrew Revill )

Test Only .. Dont Read !

--
Iain Sharp )

On Wed, 29 May 1996, George Szaszvari wrote:

> Count Agoston Haraszthy, from the southern Balaton area, was, apparently,
> one of the founders of the modern Californian wine industry. In 1856 he
> founded the Buena Vista Winery in Sonoma Valley, California. I visited
> the place last February, but does anyone know anything about this
> interesting chap?

Stephen Sisa in his book "America's Amazing Hungarians" writes:

"Agoston Haraszty (1812-1869). This Transylvanian
nobleman, allegedly a Count, was the embodiment of true pioneer spirit."
..
[snip]

   "Having lost all his holdings in 1966, Haraszty moved with his older
son and his family to Nicaragua where he succeeded in building up a new
estate by introducing the production of sugar on his plantation, the
Hecienda San Antonio.
   But on July 6, 1869, Haraszty's luck finally ran out cancelling all
his dreams: he met an accidental death by drowning after being attacked
by alligators."

Barna Bozoki

On Wed, 29 May 1996, Burian wrote:
>
> Now I'll mention an experience I had in this group which may (or may not)
> be "typically Hungarian."  And keep in mind, I'm not at all bothered, just
> very amused.  I put out a notice recently that I was writing a book based
> in Hungary, and I needed info on all sorts of important things: life in
> the 30s-40s in BP, in 1944, the years before comm. in 45'48, the Rakosi
> years, the Nagy years, etc.  And then, just as an example of some of the
> little details of life, I asked what one would order at Gerbeaud's.
>
> Well, no response to the important questions

Important? To whom?

Barna Bozoki

On Wed, 29 May 1996, Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) wrote:

>         In their extremism, there is much that make Pellionisz and
>         Kornai kindred spirits.

I agree, but I would add Eva Balogh to the group. This silly argument on
the semantics of the '56 revolution/freedom-fight is an utter nonsense.
Anybody can look at the transcripts of radio broadcasts or copies of the
newspapers of the period and see for themselves, that the word
"szabadsagharcos" was frequently used during the last few days of the
revolution.

As far as the historic assessment of the events is concerned, may be we
should wait 10 more years, because as Arthur Koestler so nicely put it:
"The meaning of a revolution only becomes clear after fifty years. It is
like a process of distillation. The fumes evaporate, while the essence of
the brew slowly gathers at the bottom."

Barna Bozoki

At 09:39 AM 5/30/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:

>As for avoiding debates of a personal nature, one way is not to pick up the
>gauntlet.

        I usually agree with George and I usually don't pick up the
gauntlet. But Cecilia's last few postings were more than I could stomach.
First, she tells us that  mental cruelty in Hungary is an acceptable way of
life. Then, addressing a letter to Joe and myself, she tells us that we are
Marxes, Lenins, and Goebbels, while she is Jefferson and Washington. When I
object, she insinuates that something is wrong with my upbrining and my mind
is "as narrow as an arrow" because I am not particularly interested in her
endless stories about herself and her family. All that while she keeps
repeating that I had made a personal attack on her, which I didn't. And it
wasn't I who brought up the subject of another, more congenial list--it was
Cecilia.

        Eva Balogh

Dear George et al;

At 03:24 AM 5/31/96 GMT, you wrote:
>In article >,  says...
>>
>>Hi y'all,
>>
>>Count Agoston Haraszthy, from the southern Balaton area, was,
>apparently,
>>one of the founders of the modern Californian wine industry. In 1856 he
>>founded the Buena Vista Winery in Sonoma Valley, California. I visited
>>the place last February, but does anyone know anything about this
>>interesting chap? BTW did Haraszthy (or anyone else) try to keep any of
>>the Hungarian wine making traditions alive when he migrated to the USA
>>(I mean: is there something like an *American Tokaji*, or similar, these
>>days)?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>George
>>
>
>--
>I have visited that area 4 years ago and was also surprised to learn
>about him.  So far I know nothing indicates that his wines have anything
>to do with Hungary - even though he imported a lot of his original
>grapes from Hungary.
>

There are a few wines in California ascribed to Hungary.  Grey Riesling, is
sometimes said to have originated there.  Several of the California labels
taste, nose and bouquet (taste and odor) are very similar to the Badacsony
Szekesfehervar.  Weibel makes a "Green Hungarian" that is from a Hungarian
grape.  There is a tokay that is made from the tokay grape in a few
wineries, but it is not as good as the Hungarian 4 and 5's.  It's rather
mediocre and too sweet without complexity or flavor.  It rather resembles
port, and some California sherries.  It used to be made more than it is
today.  I think when the last two blights hit the grapes here in the past 15
years, most of the vines were replaced by other more popular varieties of
grapes.  Some of the "California varieties" and some newer hybrid varietals,
such as the "symphony" grape have a grape vine or two from Hungary in their
"family history."  The University of California, Davis who usually develops
all the new stuff, has grapes from around the world in its stock.  It is
supposed to have one of the largest stocks in the world.

Count Agoston Haraszthy disappeared and was reported to have died (how they
knew I have no idea) in Central America, Nicaragua, I think.  He was last
seen alive in Central America, and then disappeared.  He had gone there to
avoid creditors not satisfied with bankruptcy terms, who still persisted,
and the general stress.  He had brothers, children and cousins who retained
interests to some degree.

If there is anything left of the Haraszthy family in Hungary, hopefully they
know more that they'd be willing to share.  The group in the states is
rather reclusive, and I haven't run into them on the internet, nor heard of
anyone else who has.

Also in the Lake Erie area of Ohio, is a lesser wine industry (no national
brands and few are even sold regionally, most only at the wineries).  It's
mostly "mom and pop" or small families or companies.  This is an area with a
very large Hungarian population and corresponding heritage.  Some of those
early Hungarians, like my grandfather did bring grape vines with them, and I
think some of the white wines in that area have some Hungarian "family
history" as well.

Is there anyone from northern Ohio on the net who can add further information?

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Group:

This is not meant to reopen a nasty debate.  The two thoughts that occurred
to me were these. Is the fellow being persecuted for revealing something
that really is, or are the officials justifiably angry (just need to behave
better about it) because he's dredging up something that the government as a
whole has discarded, though some die-hard officials in some areas may be
attempting to persist beyond the real limits of their authority?  Second, if
this fellow retired in 1977 (if that isn't a typo), how much does he really
know of the _present_ Securitate, and the rest of the government anyway?  It
seems to me this needs further investigation, and certainly corroboration
from someone who either isn't retired, or retired a lot more recently--like
within the last year.   By the way I've often said in the HL group that
reports and complaints need more investigation before they are acted upon.
One report, especially if the source may be too easily considered biased,
isn't enough.

Does anyone know of any evidence, witnesses, etc. who either corroborate or
refute this stuff as _present_ modus operandi?  Not just opinions--evidence?

Cecilia


>Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:18:47 -0600 (MDT)
>From: Sigismund Biro >
>To: HUNGARIAN LOBBY >
>Subject: HL: Confessions of a Securitate officer
>Sender: 
>Reply-To: 
>
>This is a reminder for those who still believe that:
>
>1) Ceausescu's regime "blessed" equally all romanian citizens;
>2) the execution of the dictator means an and to his philosophy.
>
>Biro Zsigmond
>
>
>Twenty Year Plan To Liquidate The Minorities
>
>  The June 27, 1995 edition of Szabadsag (Freedom), a Hungarian language
>daily newspaper published in Kolozsvar (Cluj), records an interview with
>Roland Vasilievici, an officer of the Securitate, (Romanian Secret
>Service) who retired in 1977. The interview followed the publication of
>his article about Ceausescu's twenty year plan to liquidate the minority
>groups in Romania in the daily newspaper Timisoara (Temesvar). The
>following is a summary of the information Roland Vasilievici provided in
>the interview.
>
>  After a dozen similar plans, the twenty year  plan was finalized in
>1976, and after approval by Ceausescu, it was initiated in 1977. The plan
>was titled "Pure Romania", and the preamble stated that future
>generations will be grateful to Ceausescu for eliminating the minorities
>to keep Romania pure.
>  The main aim of the plan was to liquidate the five ethnic groups,
>German, Hungarian, Jewish, Roma and Turkish, judged most dangerous for
>Romania. The plan was divided into two ten years sections, with yearly
>evaluations, and any necessary modification. The overall plan was known
>to high government and Securitate officials. Below the level of the
>county commanders of the Securitate, officials were given only commands
>specific to their own position and geographic area. The spheres of
>activity included the justice, education, immigration and defence
>departments of the government, the armed forces, county and municipal
>government officials, local police, officials in agriculture, industry
>and commerce, and officials overlooking the religious, cultural, social
>and political activities of the people. In all this areas not only
>special advantages, but even basic rights and privileges were denied or
>drastically limited to the members of the indicated ethnic groups. In
>this manner they made the everyday existence of these people so
>miserable, that they wanted to leave the country very desperately. So
>they were given passports and exit visas to leave the country, and in
>this manner the German and Jewish minorities were almost completely
>liquidated. The liquidation of Romas and Hungarians have been
>accomplished only to the extent of about 25% and 12%, respectively.
>  In the interview some specific examples of the plan were mentioned.
>Young men of the ethnic groups drafted into the army were assigned to
>work units doing hard physical work, such as mining. Young people of
>ethnic groups completing their high school or university education were
>given jobs not on their own ethnic regions, but in the far parts of the
>country with Romanian population. Extra harsh sentences were handed down
>by the courts to the members of the ethnic groups. The emigrated Germans,
>Jews and Hungarians were replaced by Romanians in the ethnic regions,
>their moving expenses were paid, they received a large sum of money to
>start at their new locality, they became members of the farming
>collectives and received significantly higher wages than the ethnic
>members. There was no state support for the farming collectives in ethnic
>areas. The Romas were encouraged to become members of the Pentecostal
>churches, so that they would be more easily accepted as refugees in the
>western countries. There was no state founding to repair and maintain the
>churches of the ethnic groups. Similar was the fate of ethnic historical
>buildings and monuments.
>  Vasilievici indicated that he made the details of the twenty year plan
>public, because he saw that it was still in operation. That is, the
>liquidation of the ethnic minority groups was still continuing in 1995 !
>After the publication of his article he received threatening phone calls,
>he was constantly followed, his windows were broken on  several
>occasions, his ex-colleagues visited him to express disapproval of his
>actions, and he was threatened by Radu Tinu, who used to be second in
>command of the Timis (Temes) county Securitate and Captain Pele, the
>Timis (Temes) county commander of the SRI (Information Gathering Service,
>new name for the Securitate)!  Based on this events, Amnesty
>International provided help for Vasilievici by officially requesting
>Romanian authorities to protect him from the constant threats.
>
>Translated and summarized by Dr. F.L. Jajczay
>
>
>====== The following has been added by the mailer software =======
>Digest: Send a mail to , in the body write
>
>unsubscribe hl
>subscribe hl-digest
>
>
N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Hope this is the right place to ask this..

I'm looking for a pre-WW1 map of Hungary, preferably in .gif or .jpg-
format. Can anyone help ?

/stefan

In article >,
 says...
>"We trained hard,... but it seemed that every time we were beginning to
>form up into teams we would be reorganized ... I was to learn later in
>life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a
>wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while
>producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralization."
>
>                                  Petronius Arbiter, 210 BC on
Reorganization
>
>Is Petronius right or wrong?  Certainly, a lot of people in Western
>workplaces would agree with Petronius, but are his comments relevant to the
>recent changes in Hungary?

I suspect that this gem is pretty universally applicable...

>P.S. Can anyone tell me where this quote is from.  I've checked just about
>every book on or by Petronius that's in our library but had no luck finding
>the above quote.

There must be a classics database/search engine on some edu library-web-ftp
address.

Regards,

George

At 04:25 PM 5/30/96 -0600, Cecilia wrote:

(after talking to three people):

>the Jewish community later has felt
>the Jewish community is generally not in favor of it
>The main Jewish concern is
> The answer of the Jewish community

Well, after seeing all the disagreements within this group on all kind of
issues, I wonder why would anyone think that "the Jewish community" is so
different and they have a unanimous agreement on this or any other issues.
Or is this to imply that they are so much different from everyone else ?

Gabor D. Farkas

On Fri, 31 May 1996, Stefan Gimeson wrote:

> I'm looking for a pre-WW1 map of Hungary, preferably in .gif or .jpg-
> format. Can anyone help ?
>
You can find several at the Mississipi State University's History
archieve:
http://www.msstate.edu/Archieves/History/Hungary

Barna Bozoki

Barna,

I have just tried that site with a slightly *corrected* URL:  (it works)
                                             ~~~~~~~~~
http://www.msstate.edu/archives/history/hungary

There is no extra "e" in archives;  also no need to use capital letters.

Martha
> ==========================================================================

On Fri, 31 May 1996, Barnabas Bozoki wrote:

> On Fri, 31 May 1996, Stefan Gimeson wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a pre-WW1 map of Hungary, preferably in .gif or .jpg-
> > format. Can anyone help ?
> >
> You can find several at the Mississipi State University's History
> archieve:
> http://www.msstate.edu/Archieves/History/Hungary
>
> Barna Bozoki

At 08:08 AM 5/31/96 +1000, George Antony, in reply to Csaba Zoltani, wrote:

>Anti-Communism would have meant further action
>against all Communist organizations and people who had Communist views.
>For comparison, Senator McCarthy WAS anti-Communist.
>
>The dissolution of the Hungarian Workers' Party wasn't a government act,
>but of the party leadership.   The Nagy government took no action against
>Communists collectively.  It was a liberal, pluralistic regime that allowed
>all political views and organizations, including the Communists', to manifest
>themselves.  Ergo, it was not anti- Communist.

        It would have been unimaginable of banning the communist party. That
would have been a harking back to pre-1945 days and no one wanted the return
of that regime.


>> Kornai goes on:
>>
>> <"... token resistance offered by Hungary..">
>> <"... few actually fought..">
>
>A rather bad choice of words.  It is obvious that some people will
>justifiably feel offended by the expression 'token resistance': it
>was anything but 'token' on the part of those who did resist.  On the other
>hand, at the national level, armed resistance was neither typical, nor
>widespread, nor significant.  In hindsight, we should be grateful
>for this: given the Soviet determination to subdue Hungary, the
>only result of more resistance would have been more casualties.

        I agree with George here. Especially the neutrality of the army was
responsible for the relatively insignificant resistance.

>Non sequitur.  The Soviets (for it is unfair to blame everything Soviet
>on the Russians who suffered more than most) had the habit of overkill.

        Quite. It was utterly ridiculous. As long as there was one little
pistol fire anywhere, twenty shots from two or three tanks were the answer.
Hence, the incredible distruction of downtown Pest. My father, who saw
Budapest after the siege in 1944-45, told me that certain parts looked as
bad after the Soviets finished with it as then.

>>  In the fighting they suffered
>>         close to 700 dead, 1500 wounded and scores missing.
>
>700 unnecessary and lamentable deaths.  But compare this figure to that
>in Chechnya if you prefer bodycounts for arguments.

        It is very hard to estimate the numbers on either side. There is the
usual tendency to overestimate. Just to give a few examples. Tibor Merey
estimated the number of executions between 2,000 and 2,500. Gyorgy Krasso's
estimate was more than 1,000. As late as in 1994 the number was estimated to
be close to 400. Yet, when Attila Szakolczai systematically researched the
court papers, it turned out that the exact figure is 229. Of course, this is
still horrendous because after 1848-49 there were only 123 death sentences,
after 1919 only 65, and even after 1945 (which is considered to be very
high, in comparison to Germany or other satellite countries) it was 189.
Complete list of persons executed can be found in Az 1956-os Magyar
Forradalom Tortenetenek Dokumentacios es Kutatointezete, *Evkonyv III. 1994*
(Budapest: 1994).

>>  When resistance
>>         was no longer feasible in light of the superiority of Russian
>>         arms, according to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees
>>         an estimated 200,000 left the country because of the fear of
>>         retribution.
>
>This is clearly tendentious myth-making on your part.  Most of the 200,000
>left because they had a gutful of the Communist regime and did not want to
>be part of its reimposition.  Most could have stayed on without retribution,
>as the average emigre was no more or no less involved in the revolution
>than the average stayer-on.

        I, as one of those 200,000, can attest that George is quite right.
Only a small percentage of the refugees were political refugees in the
strict sense of the word. Most people took advantage of the opportunity to
"get the hell out of there." Life in Hungary before 1956 was terrible, not
just politically but also economically. Moreover, the Hungarian borders were
hermetically sealed and here was an opportunity to see the rest of the
world. A lot of younger people left because they couldn't get into
university in Hungary and they were hoping to continue their education
abroad. A lot of young people simply left in the hope of better life. I met
several people who had been just freed from jail and were afraid to end up
back in their cells. Out of the forty people who crossed the border with me
there were at least three such former political prisoners. There were some
who tried to cross the border earlier but they were caught and their ID
papers were taken away from them. They felt that they had to leave under the
circumstances. In my opinion there were two groups of people who were
political refugees: (1) mostly students who were active in the preparation
of the demonstration and in different student organizations and/or
publications; (2) people who were involved in the armed resistance.


        Eva Balogh

At 08:40 PM 5/29/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wed, 29 May 1996, Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) wrote:
>
>>         In their extremism, there is much that make Pellionisz and
>>         Kornai kindred spirits.
>
>I agree, but I would add Eva Balogh to the group. This silly argument on
>the semantics of the '56 revolution/freedom-fight is an utter nonsense.

        You would add my name, wouldn't you. First of all, who started this
utter nonsense of semantics as you call it? If I recall it was Pellionisz
disguised as Szucs. Moreover, it seems that those people, obviously
including you, who insist on this stupid distinction have some political
agenda which had been unknown to me.
        I have always thought of or talked of the Hungarian Revolution of
1956 with the utmost reverence. A couple of years ago I said that "it is one
of the proudest moments of our history" (see some old issue of the Forum). I
hate this political football played by people who were not even alive, or if
they were alive were too young to understand it or participate in it. They
have no idea what was going on and they cannot appreciate that immense
national unity which characterized those days. Forty years later trying to
drive a wedge between the participants is a disgusting political game.

        Eva Balogh

Lectoris Salutem!
        I read in the newspaper yesterday (Magyar Nemzet) (in parentheses
there are explanations, added by me, KGy):
        The "Union of Hungarian Symphonic Orchestrae" turned to Gabor
Demszky, Chief Mayor of Budapest with an open letter, in which they offer
a free concert to the (public of the) capital on the occasion of the
millecentenary (1100 years anniversary of the Hungarian presence in The
Carpathian Basin).
        "We have learnt - write the leaders of the orchestrae, assembled
in the Union - that on the occasion of the closing of the Budapest festive
ceremonies and of the presentation of the renovated millenary group of
historical monuments (milleneumi szoboregyuttes ujjaavatasa) there would
be the festive concert performing
                        Mozart: Requiem
in the Heroes' Square (Ho"so:k tere'n) on the 30th of June. The member
orchestrae of the Union of Hungarian Symphonic Orchestrae are ready
to contribute to the dignified celebration of the outstanding historical
anniversary with a concert fitting to the unique occasion by performing
                opuses of Erkel, Liszt, Bartok and Kodaly.
For the performance of this concert the Union will create a representative
ensemble selected from the member orchestrae, which - with regard to the
anniversary - will  n o t  require  a n y  r o y a l t y."
        The union proposes in the letter that the performing stage - to be
set up anyway by 30 June in the Heroes' Square - should be built up by
the City one day earlier and should be left to the disposal of the
selected ensemble.
        (I support this idea, that is we could celebrate the 1100 years
anniversary of the birth of the Hungarian State with the festive selection
of solemn music on June 29
        and Mr. Demszky and friends could celebrate the coming end of his
miserable reign with a mourning mess (without mass) on 30 June).

        May God bless us all...                 kadargyorgy

PS. I declare that I deeply love Mozart's music...