From the OMRI reports:

>NOTE TO OUR READERS. Andrii Ozadovsky, Ukrainian ambassador to the Czech
>Republic, has appealed to OMRI as well as Czech officials and
>publications to refer to the Ukrainian capital as "Kyiv" rather than
>"Kiev." In an interview with OMRI, the ambassador explained that a
>special government commission last fall ordered its representatives to
>appeal to governments and periodicals to switch to the Ukrainian
>transliteration. He said his government has formally appealed to the UN
>to use Ukrainian transliterations of place names in official documents
>and references. The UN has agreed to comply with this request. As of 15
>March, OMRI is using "Kyiv" in its publications.

This is ridiculous! What's next?  The Russians asking to use Moskva
instead of Moscow?  How about Warshawa for Warsaw?  (Or is is Wasau? ;-)
Not to mention Muenchen for Munnich!  There are no people in power with
backbone any more to stand up against such name change requests?
For if there were, they would answer such request by saying: "You call
your cities in your language any way you want and let us do the same
in our language!"

Joe Pannon

Harom napja nem tudom elerni a HIX ujsagjait, es itt sem latom oket.
Tudja valaki mi tortent?
Koszi, udv

tamas

-- 

Tamas GAAL

This magazin's editor is Csaba Csere, somebody with an unmistakably
Hungarian name.  Does anybody know of his background?  Is he a '56er,
or perhaps born to '56er parents?

Thanks,
Joe Pannon

Laszlo Horvath  > wrote:
>
>countryside (on a tanya) of Szabolcs (Nyirseg) I used to hear "gazda" 
>used in its primary sense "paraszt". But in that sense it was applied, in 
>the first place, to the well-t-do, respaectable farmers. By the way, in 

Indeed, in one of the meanings the word implies something the
communists came to call "kulak"; a prosperous farmer.

>Serbo croation usage "gazda" means "boss, foreman".

Maybe because they tended to be the employees of such farmers.

> Since the word is 
>present in Slovakian and Serbo-Croation, we could conjecture that indeed 
>it is "magyar" and was borrowed by the "two neighbors". The third person 

After hearing many derogatory insults on the Slovak list about the
supposed nomad, barbaric ancestors of ours who learned agriculture
from their ancestors, I found it tempting to "rub it in" to them that
how come they had to borrow such a word from those nomadic Hungarians
instead of the other way around?

>past-tense for "safarkodni" should be "safarkodott" instead of "rosszul 
>safirkodott". Yes, it sounds pretty old fashioned today. Although, just 

That was an obvious typo on my part.

>before I left home, it was beginning to acquire a new and 
>derogative connotation, similar to "kupeckedik" (as if ugyeskedik, 
>seftenkedik, kereskedik, add-vesz, kupeckedik, were rolled into one word)

Hm, that's interesting.

Thanks for the comments,
Joe Pannon

Nem muveszi elismeresert teszem fel ezt a kis versemet az SCM-ra,
csupan azert hogy a bennunk rejlo alkotokepesseget (nem csak egy
versiras formalyaban) batoritsam. S persze, a "veszekedes" ellen
is felszolalhatok egyuttal ;-).

E versem megjelent a "Szabad Fold" 1994 december 21-i szamaban, az
ABC rovatban.

Szeretettel (sajnos ekezett nelkul :-( ) minden kedves olvasonak:

____________________________________

HA A PAROK VESZEKEDNEK

   Szabo Attila

Ha a parok veszekednek,
Az ordogok szemtelenek,
Nem akarjak a szerelmet
Mely ket embert osszekothet.

De ha a parok mosolyognak,
Mikor igen nagy a banat,
Az ordogok arrebb mennek,
Mert egyebet nem tehetnek.

Ha a parok csokot adnak
Mikor igen rossz hirt kapnak,
Az ordogok odebballnak,
S fejjel mennek neki a fanak.

Ha a parok rosszat hallnak,
S megis kedves szoval szolnak,
Az ordogok elszaladnak,
Itt jo termest nem aratnak!

Ma az ordogok messze mennek,
A parok sem veszekednek,
Nincs ott meg az indulat
Mely ket szivet elszakithat

November 1994

-----------------------------------

In article >, N. Tibor > wrote:
>
>Csupan pontositas vegett jegyzem meg, hogy Szabo Albert 1986-ban
>indult Ausztraliaba, ahova vegul 87 juniusban erkezett meg, ket
>testvere elt ott. Magyarországra 1993-ban érkezett vissza .

Igen, ezt hallottam en is.  S azt is, hogy Ausztraliaban is nagyon
megutaltatta magat magyar korokben az izgaga viselkedesevel.

>Kivandorlasi engedelyt nem kapott "Kadarektol", Magyarorszagot
>illegalisan hagyta el.

Errol viszont nem hallottam.  Hany ev koruli tag ez a pasas?

> Az izraeli tartozkodasarol o maga azt mondta, hogy "egy
>kozelkeleti utat tettem. Hat ezt nem akarom nagyon reszletezni, hogy
>milyen benyomasok ertek."

Ez erdekes.  Nem is lehet akkor csodalni, ha kulonbozo talalgatasok
kapnak labra felole.

>Az idezett beszelgetes Szabo Alberttel a Pannon Front negyedik
>szamaban jelent meg.

Ehhez viszont nekem semmi kozom! ;-)

Pannon J.

On Mar 06, 1996 01:15:09 in article <Hungarians in Romania --( 8 )--
Minority culture>,  (Anthony Malzanek)' wrote: 
 
>THE SITUATION OF MINORITY CULTURE IN ROMANIA 
>============================================   
> 
>1. The period between 1918-1944: 
>============================ 
 
>- Aproximately 50 statues representing Hungarian or Austrian historical   

>personalities erected in public places were destroyed or demolished   and 

>became the victims of the anti-Hungarian temper: 
> 
>- in Arad and Tirgu Mures representing Kossuth Lajos were demolished,  
>- the statue of Kulcsey in Satu Mare was blown up,  
>- that in Deva representing David Ferenc disappeared, 
>- as well as in Cluj Napoca, representing the Hungarian Queen Elizabeth.  

>Hungarians were deprived of rights that contribute to the preservation of 
 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>their national identity. 
>------------------------  
 
All revolutions are accompanied by the destruction of the statues and
symbols of the old regime a practice that can be witnessed in  the
widespread demolision of statues of Lenin, Stalin, and other communist
tyrants throughout Eastern and Central Europe.  While a certain
anti-Hungarianism was no doubt part of the reason for the post-war
destruction of Hungarian monuments, the overwhelming reason was to
symbolize the destruction of the regime that had built and sustained those
monuments. 
 
Alexander

Dear Colleagues:
I have just received from Istvan Lovas the following alarm
and urge you to immediate action!
Andras Pellionisz
====

From: Istvan Lovas >
Subject: POLICE AGAINST FREEDOM OF SPEECH

Facts:
Hungarian radio reported first at 12:02 pm yesterday that Hungarian police had
stopped the day before  two young men carrying a banner that compared the
present Horn-government to the Pol Pot regime in front of the Museum where the
Hungarian government celebrated the anniversary of the Hungarian revolution of
March 15, 1848.  According to the spokesman of the police, each of them receive
d
a  fine of  HUF 15,000 (one and a half time  the minimum monthly wage) for
comparing the government to a "fascist regime" and, thereby, for disturbing the
peace and public order.

Comments:
This is the first time since 1990 that such action was carried out by the
police. If the men fined decide not to pay the fine, they may be thrown into
prison and become the first political prisoners in Hungary.

Request:
Please contact your local chapter of Amnesty International or the AI center in
London (Ivan Fiser, fax +44 171 956 1157, E-mail: (GreenNet)
.) since, by virtue of the charter of AI, local chapters are
not allowed to deal with any human rights violations committed in their own
country.

mongolian      bee chumd hairtai 
                      bee chumd duralsan
:-) zula
georgian        me shen mikvarchar
                      me tkven mikvarchart (formal)
:-))) lasha

In article >, Joji147 > wrote:
| 
|      Why doesn't just somebody go get a dictionary, or get a reference
| book that's related to that!  ( There must be one.)  Stop wasting space
| with this lame piece of crap.  Who's gonna say I love you in Swahili or
| Azebajiani anyway, in actually practice?

Perhaps people whose native tongue is Azeri or Swahili? But
what makes you think that the reason someone asked for the
translations is tha t the person wants to say these things
in these languages ? As far as I remember btw more ppl speak
Swahili then Japanese!

|      I suggest you read my article on soccer, "World Cup belongs to Japan
| !", in soc.jap., since almost everyone in the world loves and understands
| soccer.

You know it's really funny that you flame people for wasting
space and call their question - and the responses crap - and
then promote your own personal article accross umteen
newsgroups - especially when the title of your article is as
arrogant as it is.


Istvan

 () wrote:
>
>This is ridiculous! What's next?  The Russians asking to use Moskva
>instead of Moscow?  How about Warshawa for Warsaw?  (Or is is Wasau? ;-)
>Not to mention Muenchen for Munnich!  There are no people in power with
>backbone any more to stand up against such name change requests?
>For if there were, they would answer such request by saying: "You call
>your cities in your language any way you want and let us do the same
>in our language!"

Actually,I have often wondered just the opposite. Why do languages change 
the spelling of proper names such as cities at all? It is very confusing 
when traveling, difficult when checking timetables especially on the 
computer and also undoubtedly the culprit in the loss of much mail. This 
represents even more of a problem when transliteration is required. Why 
not let a country's postal system establish the correct name?

Les

In article >, Brainy > wrote:

> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> 
> --------------16B34BBC40DA
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> --brainy

=============
Please add:

Japanese   =   I rub you.

=============

earle
=====

-- 
...no sig is good sig..

 () wrote:

>This is ridiculous! What's next?  The Russians asking to use Moskva
>instead of Moscow?  How about Warshawa for Warsaw?  (Or is is Wasau? ;-)
>Not to mention Muenchen for Munnich!  There are no people in power with
>backbone any more to stand up against such name change requests?
>For if there were, they would answer such request by saying: "You call
>your cities in your language any way you want and let us do the same
>in our language!"
>Joe Pannon

It is highly similar to the old and much discussed issue of the name of 
this newsgroup, soc.culture.magyar and not soc.culture.hungarian.
While in the newsgroup name issue I was on the side of using the english
name, for practical reasons I do not see anything wrong or outrageous 
about changing our own names names, labels etc. as an expression of a new 
status.
Just recall the fever of renaming quite a nunmer of streets etc. in 
Hungary in 1990-1992... And selecting new state symbols...

Let Kiev be Kyev or Kyiv or whatever they like to call themselves
officially. In private conversations you may still refer to them as you 
like.

greetings

tamas

Tamas GAAL

In article >, LRG20009 > say
s:
>
 () wrote:
>>
>>This is ridiculous! What's next?  The Russians asking to use Moskva
>>instead of Moscow?  How about Warshawa for Warsaw?  (Or is is Wasau? ;-)
>>Not to mention Muenchen for Munnich!  There are no people in power with
>>backbone any more to stand up against such name change requests?
>>For if there were, they would answer such request by saying: "You call
>>your cities in your language any way you want and let us do the same
>>in our language!"
>
>Actually,I have often wondered just the opposite. Why do languages change 
>the spelling of proper names such as cities at all? It is very confusing 
>when traveling, difficult when checking timetables especially on the 
>computer and also undoubtedly the culprit in the loss of much mail. This 
>represents even more of a problem when transliteration is required. Why 
>not let a country's postal system establish the correct name?

Yes, it does seem absurd to have lots of different pronunciations for
all these place names. There does seem to be some reason for it, though: 
certain languages often don't have the exact equivalent sounds of the 
language from where the indigenous place name derives and alter the
spelling to resemble their own pronunciation accordingly, as well as 
fit in with the spelling habits of their own written language.
More interesting, however, is when a more or less completely different 
name is substituted: e.g., Aix-la-Chapelle for Aachen, and any others 
anyone might like to mention. Of course, historical reasons will explain 
it.

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
* Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted *
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

MILUJU TE ES TE AMO EN CHECO

Egy otlet azok szamara, akik publikalni szeretnek szamitogeppel keszitett 
grafikaikat:

A magyar computer & design szerkesztosege varja alkotasaitokat a vilag 
minden reszerol uj Galeria rovataba. A kepeket barmilyen formatumban 
bekuldhetitek (EPS, TIFF, JPEG, PICT stb.), CD-, SyQuest- vagy 3,5-ös 
lemezen, vagy e-mail-en a kovetkezo cimre: 

Alma Viva Studio
1052 Budapest
Apaczai Csere Janos u. 3.
Tel: (36)1 138-4-138
e-mail:   

A kepekhez mellekeljetek egy rovid (max. 100 szavas) leirast arrol, hogy 
milyen gepen, milyen egyeb hardware felhasznalasaval, milyen 
programokkal keszultek.

Agnes

In article >,
Gabor Barsai > wrote:
>Az en imazsomon pl. sokat javitana ha birtokolnek egy szigetet a Karib
>tengerben, Florida deli resze korul,...palmafak...pasztell szinek...lagy
>zene...a tenger moraja...kubai nok...
>
>Gabor

Ki kell javitanom magam...inkabb Acapulco, vagy Cabo San Lucas, a Baja
California felsziget deli csucsken...oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh. Micsoda hegyek es
szinek...a Csendes Ocean.
A tobbi stimmel: palmafak,...etc.
Mint a Paradicsom.

Gabor

Bonjour !

Je suis francais, et j'aimerais savoir si quelqu'un serait capable de
traduire une lettre francaise (assez courte) en hongrois.
Merci de m'ecrire a :

               

A bientot ? :)

In article >,  (Wally
Keeler) wrote:
> Take a hint efischer. Mr Joe Pannonescu is high octane excetylene to your 
> little Bic flames, because, after all is said and done, Joe is 
> well-Hungary. If you want to taunt him, there will be a chain-saw 
> massacre that will turn your bytes into little itty bitty binary bits.

: 9 Mar 1996 wrote:
[oh Subtly Ironic One : as you know, i am quaking in my boots.
[pitiful it is too
[my boots are rather nice ones and i would hate to lose my standing
[:-) ef

"quaking in my boots" my what a stale dimestore turn of phrase!
Oh Great Creative Force please post an original metaphor or simile.
Unless I am Ms Taken, you are a Banality Bum.
Whereas Joe is well-Hungary, you are hung wellfairy or is that welfare-y.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

> wrote:
>ooo... a nart critic! :-)

Joe Pannonescutie wrote:
|Who said it was a nart?

Narn't you the clever one. ;-)

>and what the hell does my webpage have to do with a discussion on racism,
>pray tell?

|In your case everything. Once somebody has seen your Web page, your
|opinion about_anything cannot possibly be taken seriously.

Her web page is litter on the side of the infobahn.

>heh... you're a funny little man, joe... but FYI, my so called webpage is
>sponsored by the canada council media arts program.

|Figures.  This kind of "art" (called so selfservingly only by the
|perpetrators themselves) could not sustain itself but through the forced
|support by taxpayers.  NEH does a lot of that, too, in the US.

State-sanctioned art. Oh Ca-na-da! 
                      Our home and native land, 
                      true patriot love
                      in all our sons command...

>and since i really really don't think you to have the neccessary
>background to discourse on the merits or demerits of my, or for that
>matter, anyone elses work, alas <sniff>, we come to the end of our
>friendly repartee...

Joe, what happened to your background? Does she know so much about you
that she presumes you incompetent to judge art. Is she so high in the
clouds above us all, in her artistic garrot mingling with the elite of
Mount Olympus that she has inherited the snob syndrome.

Sponsored by an element of the Canadian State. Interesting. The
construction of the CANDU nuclear reactors at Cernavoda, Romania, with the
use of forced Hungarian labour, was also sponsored by an element of the
Canadian State. I don't think fischer has much to be proud of regarding
that sponsorshit.

>you're but a little smidgen on my horizon, joe, and look what you have
>done! you have erased yourself!

|Wow!  What an artful prose!  With such a talent, 

She is so far above us Joe,
     Faster than a witty zinger
     More powerful than a government grant
     Able to leap over crowds of pedestrians in a single bound
     Look, up in the sky
     it's a nart
     it's a fairyplane
     No it's Superbanal

|Yes, I hope a lot of people will visit your "art".

Coming from a Fungarian nart critic like yourself, that's quite the
recommendation.

Perhaps you could recommend that EF & myself get into a little bit of ARTS
WAR. I don't think she knows about my Attack Artcrafts :=)))))!!!!! Keep
in mind that I don't roll them out of the hangers unless the provocation
is truly Saddam-like. In the meantime, a few preparatory taunts might
offer some encouragement.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

On Mar 09, 1996 21:49:06 in article <Re: Hungarians in Romania --( 5 )--
Memorandum>,  (Matyas )' wrote: 
 
 
>In article >,  

>(Alexander N. Bossy) writes: |> On Feb 19, 1996 21:15:05 in article
<Hungarians  
>in Romania --( 5 )-- 
>|> Memorandum>, 'Anthony Malczanek >' wrote: |>   
>|>   
>|> >MEMORANDUM  
>|> >==========  
>|> >  
>|> >BY THE DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE OF HUNGARIANS IN ROMANIA   
>|> >=================================================== |> >ON ROMANIA'S  
>ADMISSION TO THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE |>  
>>===============================================    
>|>   
>|> >II.    Changes  Required in Romania's Legal System: |>  
>>============================================ |>   
>|> >7. The legal guarantee of the principle of positive       
>|> >discrimination in favor of national minorities, in the spirit       
>|> >of existing international agreements;     
>|>   
>|> "Positive" racial and ethnic discrimination has been extensively |>  
>implimented in the United States.  It has been an unmitigated failure.  It
|>  
>breeds much more extensive racial and ethnic animosities than existed |>  
>before.  It encourages ethnic "Balkanization" - something that Romania |> 

>certainly does not need.  It mandates a Nazi-like fixation on race.  And,
|>  
>according to the propoents of "possitive" ethnic discrimination, it
doesn't |>  
>even equalize opportunity.  Adoption of such an immoral and retrograde |>
legal  
>system would constitute the first step towards ethnic civil war, and |>  
>consequently should be avoided at all costs.  A much better system is to
|>  
>simply ban all ethnic discrimination, and treat the citizenry as |>  
>individuals.  
> 
>Hi Alexander, 
> 
>Your argument seems logical if we look at the today's US. But I don't
think  
>that without positive discrimination the rights and chances of minorities
could  
>have improved to the extent they have. And my impression is that at least
in  
>feelings the attitude towards minorities in Romania is similar to the one 

>towards racial minorities in the US (especially in the south) in the 60's.

 
Hi Matyas: 
 
The biggest problem that blacks faced in the United States was
institutionalized racism: in many areas of the country blacks couldn't
vote, they were legally prohibited from sitting in the same railway car,
they couldn't swear on the same Bible in court, they couldn't drink from
the same water fountain or use the same rest rooms. 
 
In contrast to American blacks before the Civil Rights movement who were
barred from partaking of national life, the chief complaint of Romania's
Hungarian minority is that they MUST assimilate.  The solution remains
ending the problem: the government should leave people to lead their own
lives.  If Hungarians wish to assimilate, so be it.  If they don't, so be
it.  And if they wish to partly assimilate, and partly retain their own
culture/religion/etc, so be it.  But, that should be THEIR decisions, not
the government's.  (Admittedly, I subscribe to Thomas Jefferson's
declaration that the government that governs best governs least - which
conflicts with Europe's more statist views.)  Anyway, we agree on this one.

 
Alexander 
 
>However, I'm not a fan of positive discrimination. Romania should let its 

>monorities to "function" according to their desires and support them as
part of  
>the population of the country. I'm sure that everything viable (churches, 

>schools, ...) would live on, while everything nonviable will diasppear
without  
>any external intervention (possibly even HDUR - think of this possibility
guys!  
>;-)) 
> 
>So I would say: stop banning, stop persecuting, stop denying...! (But this
is  
>neither in the interest of the government, nor is it seemingly compatible
with  
>the current xenophobic attitude of most of the Romanians.) 
 
>Matyas 
>--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
Your  
>e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please,
report  
>inappropriate use to                 For information
(incl.  
>non-anon reply) write to     If you have any problems,  
>address them to          

Maybe you want to try get in contact with the Orszagos Leveltar.  Important 
documents such as certificates and school records have been kept
and forwarded for safe-keeping.  I do not know for sure the details or
exact requirements but I am sure that they were not thrown away.

Imre

In article >,  (Wally
Keeler) wrote:


> "quaking in my boots" my what a stale dimestore turn of phrase!
> Oh Great Creative Force please post an original metaphor or simile.
> Unless I am Ms Taken, you are a Banality Bum.
> Whereas Joe is well-Hungary, you are hung wellfairy or is that welfare-y.



ahm... wally?... (whoever you may be) exactly why are you attacking?

am i supposed to now hone my wit on you or something? i really don't see
the point. i have no idea who you are. and you know even less of me.

.... 

*writing* flames???... "welfare-y"????

geez

ef

-- 
NWHQ
http://www.knosso.com/NWHQ/

Subject: if you know someone who might be interested...
     To: , , ,
        , , ,
        , 

Dear Friends,

If you know someone who might be interested in the Hungarian course
advertised below, please, pass on the info. You can also pass on my
e-mail address since I can also answer questions regarding the course,
esp. about the teaching part and the contents.

Thank you very much!

Best,

Anna

> ============================================

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        Hungarian Summer Institute
        Department of Slavic Languages
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        University of Pittsburgh
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        (412) 624-5906
        

 (George Szaszvari) wrote:
 There does seem to be some reason for it, though: 
>certain languages often don't have the exact equivalent sounds of the 
>language from where the indigenous place name derives and alter the
>spelling to resemble their own pronunciation accordingly, as well as 
>fit in with the spelling habits of their own written language.
>More interesting, however, is when a more or less completely different 
>name is substituted: e.g., Aix-la-Chapelle for Aachen, and any others 
>anyone might like to mention. Of course, historical reasons will explain 
>it.
>
Not to put too fine a point on it but, actually, we do not make any effort 
to use the (different) spellings as an aid to pronuciation. If we did, we 
would spell Paris as Pahree in English and the French would spell Londres 
as London.

Les

Gyorgy Kovacs ) wrote:
: In article >,
: olivier razemon > wrote:
: >Hi!
: >I am a french journalist and work for the magazine Idol. We aim to publish
: >a special issue on the gay touristic resorts all over the world. In this
: >view, I would be very grateful to anyone who could give me some info on
: >the gay life in Budapest.
: >Be so kind. Give me some news!! And be welcome in Paris...
: >Olivier Razemon

: I don't think Budapest qualify as a gay touristic resort. If you mean happy b
y 
: gay than it's history. Poverty pretty much ruins that kind of stuff.
: If you mean homosexual by gay, than you are very far off. Budapest isabsolutl
y 
: no resort for that.

Your gaydar isn't working very well Gayorgy. When my wife and myself 
strolled along the Danube promenade in '91, there's considerable gay 
cruising. 

: Tourism is welcomed, and encouraged, there are a lot of beautiful sites worth
 
: to be seen, and a lot of good food to be eaten.
: Sincerely,
: Gyorgy Kovacs
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

> According to the spokesman of the police, each of them received
>a  fine of  HUF 15,000 (one and a half time  the minimum monthly wage) for
>comparing the government to a "fascist regime" and, thereby, for disturbing 
>the peace and public order.

This is interesting because a virtually identical incident, but with the
opposite direction, happened during the first year of the Antall
government.  I think it was at the 1991 March 15 commemoration at the
National Museum, when some Jewish group unfurled a large sign branding
the Antall government Nazi-like, or something to that effect, thus
making the opening salvo in the current battle of accusations and
counter-accusations between Jewish and non-Jewish activists.

Of course at that time the provocators were not arrested by the
authorities.  So we've come a long way in the last five years, haven't we?

Joe

tamas  > wrote:
>
>Just recall the fever of renaming quite a nunmer of streets etc. in 
>Hungary in 1990-1992... And selecting new state symbols...

Well, I don't think those streets had any names established in the
languages of other countries.
>
>Let Kiev be Kyev or Kyiv or whatever they like to call themselves
>officially. In private conversations you may still refer to them as you 
>like.

They can call it whatever, I'll still call it Kiev.  Just as I keep
calling Beijing Peking, Wien Vienna (or Be'cs in Hungarian).  If they
complain, I still have my middle finger to show them.  After all, they 
have no authority over the English, or other languages.  Most English
speakers familiar with that part of the world *know* what Kiev is and that
is more important than whether it transliterates right or not.  These
people wouldn't even know how to pronounce Kyiv, not to mention what that is!

So much for political correctness today,
Joe

In article >, LRG20009 > say
s:
>
 (George Szaszvari) wrote:
> There does seem to be some reason for it, though: 
>>certain languages often don't have the exact equivalent sounds of the 
>>language from where the indigenous place name derives and alter the
>>spelling to resemble their own pronunciation accordingly, as well as 
>>fit in with the spelling habits of their own written language.
>>More interesting, however, is when a more or less completely different 
>>name is substituted: e.g., Aix-la-Chapelle for Aachen, and any others 
>>anyone might like to mention. Of course, historical reasons will explain 
>>it.
>>
>Not to put too fine a point on it but, actually, we do not make any effort 
>to use the (different) spellings as an aid to pronuciation. If we did, we 
>would spell Paris as Pahree in English and the French would spell Londres 
>as London.

Huh? What is actually the not too fine a point? If you want to make 
your own point that's fine, but I think you missed the point of what I
posted. Perhaps it wasn't clear enough, but my posting said that we use 
spellings according to the sound we make in trying to pronounce names in 
foreign languages. Thus we spell Flushing for Vlissingen, Brussels for 
Bruxelles/Brussel, Munich for Muenchen, etc, how we sound them. Paris, 
too, but that is a bad example, being an exception to the English practice 
of normally using the true French pronunciations. French has had too strong
an influence on the English language (and education) to be *strange* 
sounding. English speakers just do not normally make the sounds used 
by the native inhabitants of these places to describe their own home 
towns. Have you heard Russians trying to pronounce English place names? 
They also tend to spell (in Russian) our place names according to how they 
pronounce them, too. They also make an effort at correct pronunciation, 
but it tends to come out kinda...Russified....and it just ain't the 
same....  I'd guess that if you weren't used to Hungarian you'd also 
have problems pronouncing my name properly and would prefer to Anglicize 
it accordingly ;-) 

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
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