>From:  (AND Books) Sun Aug 27  1995 wrote;
>you have become aware of the Finn-Ugric Sumerian agglutinativelink betwixt
>magyar and finn. both languages are also #1 in poetic expression (a clue to
>their linguistic insight to the flaw and futility of the human condition)...
>lighten up! a culture that creates the greatest logicians must have a
>concomitant down-side of members who emote personally to their ultimate
>conclusions... that's the cultural price paid by us all. If your observation
>was NOT correct, i would begin to doubt the universality of mathematics.
>csendo"r ba'tya'm! ugye jo' vicc!
>janos

I would dearly love to know how you were able to quantify the boast that "both
languages are also #1 in poetic expression." After all, it is your singular
"clue" on which you base your further arguements, including your claim that it
"creates the greatest logicians." I see neither a logical connection in your
arguement, nor a poetic arguement. Please explain to us all.

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

:From: T. Kocsis > Mon Aug 28  1995
:In case of the above mentioned region it is a 'custom' that the old sick
:people commit suicide because they don't want to be a burden on the family.
:You may take into account the alcoholism, and the neurosis. The last one is
:very important. We are a pessimistic nation, and we are lacking of samples of
:personal strategies to apply in such dire straits....or in other way, the
:suicide is the Hungarian 'solution' for neurosis.  For example, the
:professorin who started and led the long-running Hungarian anti-suicide
:program committed suicide couple of years ago..
:Tamas

As I recall, one of the shockers that brought the condition more publicity in
Hungary in the pre-revolution days was the "suicide" of Miss Hungary. It was
not a very good advertisement of socialism. 

|From:  Mon Aug 28  1995     
|tamas also mentioned that estonia overtook hungary, according to the most
|recent statistics.  and estonia has a very close genetic and linguistic link
|to finland (and a more distant one to hungary as well).  hmmm.....it seems to
|me to be too much of a coincidence... 

Well, how 'bout this: I do not have the figures handy, but I had read last
year sometime that Canada's Natives had the highest suicide rate in the world.
Canada as a whole is "up there" insofar as suicide is concerned, but far from
the rate expressed by Hungary or the Scandanavian countries. The reason this
came to light was because Canada had been declared by a UN agency to be the
best place on Earth to live in terms of life expectency, income, literacy,
infant mortality, etc etc. Over all it looked good -- but it was not good for
many of Canada's Natives. Many tribes live in third world conditions -- they
are in remote communities with nothing. Their former way of life (culture) has
been destroyed. This is classic hopelessness. The way out is suicide, drugs or
alcohol. 

I don't think there is any coincidence here with any linguistic links with
Finland or Hungary. 

|many people are depressed, or go through periodic depressions for a multitude
|of reasons.  but why some step over the point_of_no_return threshold? and why
|so many more in hungary?  that's what's really puzzling!?...
     
|einstein (and maybe chomsky) argued the point that language and mentality are
|related.  (it also makes sense to a layman like me).

Same with me, however, I am at a loss to identify any link with the tendency
towards suicide. If there are such links between language and mentality, then
it would be interesting to see which nation has the highest murder rate and
make some comparative analysis. English is shared between Canada, USA,
Britain, Australia, New Zealand. Between Canada and the USA, the murder rate
is sky-high in the USA compared to the Canadian murder rate. This includes the
very large French factor in Quebec, which shares the same level of murder as
English Canada. Without any stats to prove my contention, I don't think
Australia has a murder rate as high as the USA and here we must take into
consideration that Australia was originally begun as a prison for exiled
British criminals.  

|could it be that excessive melancholic nuances in the linguistic patterns
|could (more easily) shape the thought processes towards such a final
|resolution?i am obvioulsy speculating since i lack a basic knowledge of
|finno-ugric languages.   -cristian
     
Interestingly, it was pointed out to me once that that in comparison with the
Canadian and US national anthems, the Hungarian national anthem is melancholic
and that this melancholia is a national trait. If this is so, what are we to
think of the Australians and their "Waltzing Matilda" anthem -- a nation of
party animals and beach bums?
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

PUBLICATION FEATURES HUNGARIAN LIFE IN ADIRONDACK AREA ..

  The September/October 1995 issue of ADIRONDACK LIFE (ISSN 0001-8252;  
Vol. XXVI, No. 6) contains a piece by Louis Mihalyi entitled "First-Class 
Citizens", describing the life of Hungarian immigrants in Lewis County of 
New York State's forested Adirondack region.                 
  Illustrated with a 4-page panoramic photo of several hundred persons 
attending a 1924 picnic of the Hungarian-American Citizens League (a 
mutual aid organization disbanded in 1962), the article traces the influx 
of 150 newcomer families who abandoned the stifling mills and mines of 
Pennsylavia to settle on small Upstate farms.
  Mihalyi, whose immigrant father became a real-estate agent and world-
renowned numismatist, recalls assimilation and the Americanization 
efforts of the League (disbanded in 1962), but fondly underscores the 
former grape-harvest festivals, Hungarian dances (with a Polish band!), 
mock trials and mock marriages of a proud tradition.  He includes ethnic 
recipes for PO"RKO"LT PAPRIKA'S (Beef Stew with Paprika), POGA'CSA 
(Crackling Biscuits), and KIFLI (Stuffed Crescents).
  A resident of Glenfield NY, Louis Mihalyi is the author of NATURE, 
NURTURE AND NOSTALGIA (North Country Books).          

 DAN KIJ (pron. "Key"), Buffalo-Lackawanna NY USA
 PRODIGY POLISH CLUB

 Internet:  

I place exchange students. . . I have a boy here from Hungary.  He wanted 
to e-mail his teacher while he is here, but has lost her e-mail address.  
Does anyone know J. Tanarno from Budapest?  If you do, would you please 
have her e-mail me asap.

Thank you,
Diane

T. Kocsis ) wrote:
: 
: This is not that touchy. The really sensitive is the list of
: those people who were in charge under the Szalasi regime
: and continued under the Communists. I know one such
: individual, a survivor artist, who was the soldier of
: Szalasi then politician in the after '45 democratic
: coalition then soldier/politician under  Rakosi's
: stalinist era, then took part in the '56 revolution then
: immigrated to USA and lived there as hero of '56 and
: tought history at university level than returned to
: Hungary around '89 and  became a Member of Parlament
: again.
: 
: Tamas

That is called "flexibility" or "Anpassungsfaehigkeit".
I wonder how consistent his versions of history were as
the years passed.

d.A.

In article > Laszlo Balogh,
 writes:
>Somewhat similar in English, usage wise: "get, got, gotten"
>In hungarian this verbal prefix seems like makes the verb ,
>more positive, stronger.

It rather turns the meaning of an abstract verb to something
concrete, actual, actionlike. It suggests that the action is
taken place entirely, or will fully be carried out .

examples:

sza'mol -  means making mathematical operations or simply
                 counting: one, two, three....
megszamol - counting certain objects one by one for getting
                their exact quantity.


vesz     - a verb with lot of meanings (take, consider, accept,
              put on,  *buy or purchase* )

megvesz - the exact action of purchasing something


la't     - have the ability to observe by sight (and other
              indefinite meaning)

megla't - catch sight of something


ne'z  - have the ability to observe by sight but it is not sure
          that something  is seen, just the eyes are open

megne'z - take a close and thorough look at something


va'r       - the action of waiting

megva'r - wait for somebody, till the arrival. 

Tamas

>From:  (AND Books)
     
      wrote:
     
     >>>ostensively you have become aware of the Finn-Ugric Sumerian 
     >>>agglutinative link betwixt magyar and finn. 
     
     >>is sumerian thrown in there to spice up the flavor? :-)
     
     >obvious typo, i meant Sumoyedic
     
     aaah, SUMO-YIDISH, of course......
     
     >>need existential re-evaluation cause: 
     
     >hu? a santa clause? a kinda quantifrier? Polish NOTation, no less :)
     
     corollary, my dear andbooks, corollary...;-)
     
     >>"Rather than a complete mistake life is lack of taste neither death 
     >>nor poetry can fix."
     >>      -Emil Cioran 
     
     >nice! makes my day :)
     
     glad to hear it.  and here's one to brighten up your night:
     
     "The thought of suicide is a great source of comfort: with it a calm 
     passage is to be made across many a night. "
     
     -Friedrich Nietzsche 
     
     >>>If your observation was NOT correct, i would begin to doubt the 
     >>>universality of mathematics.
     
     >>euclidean or non-euclidean?...
     
     >inclusive tyme lines that take you to Rheimiam inner-space 
     >aka subdenumerable inf sets
     
     aah....why didn't you say so in the first place....however, YOU should 
     know that quantrons and teflons only exist in the non-existent 
     rheimiam realm for a mere nano-eternity and therefore considering 
     rolarian_time_folds*&%(&&^%^%%$&)##@#^&)**Y*(G&^%(..........zzzzzzzzzz
     zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
     zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
     zzzzz......... 
     
     >>>csendo"r ba'tya'm! ugye jo' vicc!
     >>>janos
     
     >>is this some kind of battle cry?
     >>-cristian
     
     >no, but since you ask, here's a little ditty:
     
     >(sa'rga csikos...)
     
     oh yes....<nostalgia creeps in.....slooooowly>......
     ........................
     ko:lo:nek barfiy-barfiy
     csa'gelek gyo:lo:m raczi
     satya'nos bata gagyi-gagyi
     lavos mekelem
     
     -cristian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article >,  (Jerry Ostrows
ki) writes:
|> Jeff Goldberg writes:
|> 
|> [....]
|> 
|> >Poland, Bohemia, Hungary, and I[,]
|> >suppose[,] Slovakia, should continue to politely jump through
|> >the hoops that the EU demands they do without offering
|> >anything in return.  In many (but far from all) cases, those
|> >hoops can be good policies on their own.
|> 
|> If EU's peoples really want to further improve their standard
|> of living in a _long run_ they should invest (not only their ECU's)
|> in Central and Eastern European economies.

I agree entirely.  I never meant to say that I think that the EU
is doing the right thing, only stating that given the policies
and inclinations of the EU what I consider to be the best
policy for CEFTA countries.

When I said that "those hoops can be good policies on their own"
I was referring to, say, telling Slovakia to be nicer to
minorities, and telling Hungary to not let itself get provoked
by Romania; but mostly telling the countries to liberalize
imports (even if the EU doesn't follow its own good advice) and
reduce government deficits (even if the EU doesn't follow its
own advice).

|> If they want to "enjoy"
|> 10-12% or higher unemployment rates forever - have them keep
|> the status quo.

Agreed.  The EU want others to liberalize imports (a good thing
even if your trading partner doesn't do the same) without being
willing to follow its own advice.  The EUs failure to liberalize
trade in exactly the areas where CEFTA countries have a comparative
advantage is hurts everyone, but in the long run, it hurts the
EU the most.

|> If the rich 15's business philosophy is demand
|> but give nothing or little in return (EU's trade barriers and
|> anti-"dumping" duties to CE & EE exports, like the most recent for
|> wooden pallets from Poland come to my mind)

I think that many of the "demands" are actually good for CEFTA countries,
while the "not giving anything in return" is mutually destructive.  But
just because the EU shoots itself in the foot (and hurts others around
it) doesn't mean that Poland and the others should do the same.

|>, CE and EE countries should
|> look somewhere else for investment and economic cooperation.

I'm not saying that the EU is the only ticket.  Or that one needs
to look exclusively in anyone direction.  I don't like trading
blocks unless they lead to global free trade.

|> Turkey is
|> an example of a EU wannabe whose EU dream has gone bust but evidently
|> its economy has not. Israel is another country which plays a double
|> card enjoying free trade with the US and close to a free one with EU. 
|> That's the way for Poland and others.

It may be, if Poland and the others can get decent access to the EU that
way, but since the EU is a natural market for CEFTA (more so than
for Turkey or Isreal), a bit more patience is merited.  (As long
as most of the "demands" are lead to good policies in themselves.)

- -jeff

- -- 
Jeffrey Goldberg
    Email:	
    WWW:	<http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/>;

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I live in southern California (Orange County) but was born and raised
in the old Hungarian neighborhood of Detroit, "Delray".   I recently
visited what's left of the old place.  How sad!   

I'm looking for other former Delray people to swap stories.  

If you:

    Know where the Magyar Haz was.
    Had soup at Al's Lounge
    Bought kolbasz at Szabo's market
    Ever read the"Szent Kirest Hirnoke"
    Shopped at Czeikei's market
    Ate hot rye bread at the backdoor to West End Bakery
        
let me hear from you.

Thanks,
Joe

I realize the name can be very common. The one I am looking for 
is an electronic engineer, late thirties, was friend with Bandiko 
and Szitas Laci, went to Sweden but then back to hungary (maybe). 
Last known address was Felso-Zoldmali ut - II ker. Looking on 
behalf of my wife who is an old friend of his (last seen in 
Geneva - CH in 1984). Reply private please. Bye - Giulio

I'm looking for my lost family in Hungary. The family names are Bezeredi
and Balazsik. The village is Endron in the city of Sopron. That's where my
grandfather is from. I'm exploring traditional genealogical routes to find
my family but I thought I'd put the info on the Net and see what happens.

Thanks

Kevin Becka  (Balazsik)

Hello everyone,

The Kuvasz Home Page on the WWW has moved. The new address is:

http://www.vnet.net/users/dbwalker/kuvasz.html

hope you have the opportunity to visit our home page and learn 
more about the Kuvasz in North America.

See you at the World Dog Show in Budapest (and Vienna) in June 
1996!!!!






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gail S. Dash                       and Kuvaszok Ilsa Lund of Ghosthill, CD, CGC
                           Ch. Ghosthill's Victor Laszlo

                            Future home of Casablanca Kuvaszok
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

***[Greetings from Hungarian-American HyperNews]***
  ***[       http://mineral.umd.edu/hahn/        ]***



        The Hungarian Ambassador, Gyorgy Banlaki, will give a talk at 
the 
Library of Congress on Sept. 14, Noon to 1:00 p.m. in the Pickford 
Theater.  (Madison Building, 3rd Floor).
        It is free and open to the public.  
        The title of the talk is:
         HUNGARY: THE PIONEER OF CHANGE IN THE POST BI-POLAR WORLD 

(The Madison Building of the Library of Congress is on Independence Ave, 
between 1st and 2nd Streets SE; take the central elevators to the third 
floor)
For more info, please, contact :
Enikö Basa

Can someone provide mem with an address for the Hungarian Cycling Federation. 
I am looking for information to plan a bicycle trip.

+-------------------------------+---------------------------------+
| Cletus Lee                    | Running OS/2 Warp 100% Fat-Free
| Bellaire, TX                  |   
|     (Play)  |
|           (Work)  |
+-------------------------------+---------------------------------+

Dear Diane,

Where is the student from (what town and school?)
What is the teacher's name. "Tanarno" means teacher, so "J. TANARNO"
woild not be enough information to find someone in Hungary.

Krisztina

Thank you all for responding.  My exchange student didn't tell me that 
tanarno meant teacher.  The student says he goes to school at "Novus" in 
Budapest and this person is his English teacher there.  Any help you can 
give would be appreciated.  I know this information isn't much, but for 
now it's all that I have.

Thanks
Diane

 (Jarek Zaremba ) wrote:
>
> In >  (margaret loo
> ) writes: 
> >
> 
> I have sent request for info to those subscription gurus back in July??
> or whatever when I first read Janet posting.
> 
> Nobody ever called back, faxed or e-mailed requested info.
> 
> BE CAREFULL.
> 
> End of my msg. Anything below is a previous e-mail from Janet &
> Margaret.
> 
> Jarek 
> 
> >In >
> 
> >(Janet Dove) writes: 
> >>
> >>Hi fellow 'netters,
> >>
> >>My name is Janet Dove and I recently started using a magazine
> >subscription
> >>club in the USA that has a FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription deal with
> >your
> >>first paid order
> >
> >so how much is the first "paid order"? Does it cover the "free" year
> >PLUS the additional year(s) of subscription? In which case it is not
> so
> >free, nor is it such a bargain.
> >
> >>Within the USA, for their USA members, they are cheaper than all
> their
> >>competitors and even the publishers themselves.
> >
> >This is not possible. If they offer a magazine less than the publisher
> >can, then they are operating at a loss and no one can operate at a
> loss
> >on this kind of scale. If you mean that this is less than the
> newsstand
> >price, then every subscription is less than the newsstand price, so
> >there's nothing new here.
> >
> > This is their price
> >>guarantee.
> >>
> >>Overseas, on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to
> >one-half
> >>of what the newstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines.  On
> >some
> >>titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newstands charge. 
> >
> >You claim to be merely a subscriber, so how do you know so much about
> >this company?
> >
> >   This is their price guarantee.
> >
> >If you do NOT represent this company, how can you be speaking of
> >"guarantees"? Only those who sell a product can offer guarantees,
> >otherwise a non-attached third party's claim of guarantee is worth
> >nothing.
> >
> > Around one-half
> >>their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new
> >>members who only speak limited English as a 2nd language.
> >
> >Terrific!
> >>
> >>Their prices are so cheap because they deal direct with each
> publisher
> >and
> >>cut-out all the middlemen.
> >
> >I can do this too by using the little cards that come with each issue.

This note is from Molecule One Scientific Research Institute. We
send thanks to all for the posting and spreading of this
informative message.(Those not intrested.. Do not read it then.) 



The  U.S.A. Dept.of the Treasury/ I.R.S., sends to: Molecule One
Scientific Research Institute:


 "You plan to establish a "Toxicity Control Centre" to study the
toxic effects of molecules and medicines, their medical
usefulness, and addictive propensities. You will establish
communication with the international community of professionals
in the various fields, in order to plan and participate in
research. Your initial planned experiment, subject to FDA
approval, involves testing high-tech superserotonins for health-
enhancing properties. The Scientific Advisory Committee will do
the testing. You will publish study results in lectures and in
leading scientific journals."


 "Another activity of the Centre will be to establish a toxicity
data bank for all molecules affecting public health, for which
you will charge users access."


 "You may contract with for-profit entities to do research (e.g.,
pharmaceutical companies)."


 "You also have an interest in medical and scientific ethics,
such as the proper labelling of drugs (including toxic effects)."

 "Another major planned activity is to establish two "Therapeutic
Environment Clinics" or "ambient clinics" with carefully designed
environments to study human mood disorders and to evaluate
various molecules in a social setting. You will have a dance room
with a video screen and high-tech acoustics, for social
interaction; a botanical garden room, for serenity; theatres
using 3-D glasses, for fascination; and private rooms (including
sleep and wash facilities) with visual stimulation (holographs
and 3-D lasers)."


 "You will seek as study subjects or patients (known as
"associates") volunteer students, as well as people with
psychological problems, senile people, people with low self-
esteem, people with a dissatisfied outlook toward some aspect of
life or society, and people suffering from Alzheimer's, chemical
dependency, HIV, anorexia, or trauma." 




 "You were originally conceived as a student science project. 
You will seek student volunteers to help run the Toxicity Control
Centre and ambient clinics (as well as participate as patients).
You hope to implement programs that will allow students credits
toward their degree for participation. You distinguish yourself
from for-profit entities on the ground that your services are not
commercially available."

 "You plan to establish a scholarship program for disadvantaged
students, particularly due to language barriers. Your officers,
directors, and employees (and their family members) will not be
eligible for such scholarships."

 "In addition to studying associates, you will also provide
counselling to them, including parenting, domestic abuse,
employment, and housing. The clinics will also offer 24-hour
outpatient treatment. The clinics will have as employees medical
doctors, licensed counsellors, security staff, and outpatient
staff. It appears that the clinics will also be involved with
promoting nutrition and exercise."

 "It is unclear whether associates will be personally charged for
any therapy or other benefits they receive, but you may seek
compensation from their health insurers."

 "You plan to distribute food to the needy, with student
volunteers."

 "You also plan to issue an annual award to the most unique and
creative molecular designers, disc jockeys (which you regard as
important to your research in the psychological effects of
music), and virtual environment artists, and establish a Hall of
Fame."

Molecule One Scientific Research Institute would be interested
in receiving email from pharmaceutical co.'s and health insurance
firms, interested in participation with our proposed research.
Molecule One Scientific Research Institute plans the operation of
"ambient clinics and environments", on a 24 hour basis, for the
public's benefit. It would be interesting for us to hear from
your (U.S.) communities, if you feel there is a need for, 24
hour, ambient clinics/environments and theatres, in your
vicinity. Based upon the success of the protocol clinics,
positive impact on health, assurance from all agencies for
expansion, Molecule One would love to come to you. Students
interested in participation, please do not send email yet.
Molecule One will keep you informed, all in it's right time. If
you feel there is need for "ambient" clinics in your city, put a
"we need one" comment on the newsgroup sci.psychology. Doctors
and Counsellors interested in information, or participation, feel
free to email. Firms interested in the audio/visual aspect of
Molecule One's ambient clinics, and participation, can email.
Students:...    "May the dance go on forever", with love. M1.

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
     
      Mon Aug 28  1995 wrote:     
     >>tamas also mentioned that estonia overtook hungary, according to the 
     >>most recent statistics.  and estonia has a very close genetic and 
     >>linguistic link to finland (and a more distant one to hungary as 
     >>well).  hmmm.....it seems to me to be too much of a coincidence... 
     
     >Well, how 'bout this: I do not have the figures handy, but I had read 
     >last year sometime that Canada's Natives had the highest suicide rate 
     >in the world. Canada as a whole is "up there" insofar as suicide is 
     >concerned, but far from the rate expressed by Hungary or the 
     >Scandanavian countries. The reason this came to light was because 
     >Canada had been declared by a UN agency to be the best place on Earth 
     >to live in terms of life expectency, income, literacy, infant 
     >mortality, etc etc. Over all it looked good -- but it was not good 
     >for many of Canada's Natives. Many tribes live in third world 
     >conditions -- they are in remote communities with nothing. Their 
     >former way of life (culture) has been destroyed. This is classic 
     >hopelessness. The way out is suicide, drugs or alcohol.
     
     interesting point.  
     
     in light of this, it is probable that the suicide rate for the native 
     americans in the usa reaches the same levels.  for the same reasons.  
     and just as tragic.  
     
     also....all these statistics seem to be made for the industrialized, 
     european-populated countries.  but there is virtually no such 
     information available for the population of 3rd world countries.  i 
     wonder what the suicide rate is, for instance, in brazil...??  is 
     really suicide a method (to cope with hopelessness) endemic to 
     developed (or relatively_developed) countries? 
     
     >I don't think there is any coincidence here with any linguistic links 
     >with Finland or Hungary. 
     
     actually, native american and eskimo languages are a distant relative 
     to the finno_ugric branch of asian languages...;-)
     
     joke aside, the case you referred to is different than the hungarian 
     one.  different background, history, culture.  however, we can find 
     (at some level, i think), common causes and symptoms to suicide.
     
     what i was referring to was the fact that hungary has a significantly 
     higher rate than all its eastern neighbours, with whom it shares 
     close(r) historical and cultural links.  the question is why.  during 
     the radio program i've heard this, a prominent hungarian psychologist 
     was interviewed, and he did not have any explanation either.  of 
     course, the linguistic link could be a mere coincidence, but.....     
     
     >I am at a loss to identify any link with the tendency towards 
     >suicide. If there are such links between language and mentality, then 
     >it would be interesting to see which nation has the highest murder 
     >rate and make some comparative analysis. English is shared between 
     >Canada, USA, Britain, Australia, New Zealand. Between Canada and the 
     >USA, the murder rate is sky-high in the USA compared to the Canadian 
     >murder rate. This includes the very large French factor in Quebec, 
     >which shares the same level of murder as English Canada. Without any 
     >stats to prove my contention, I don't think Australia has a murder 
     >rate as high as the USA and here we must take into consideration that 
     >Australia was originally begun as a prison for exiled British 
     >criminals.  
      
     good point.
     
     i remember i saw some stats, some time ago, in which usa was clearly 
     and by far the most violent industrialized country, followed by (and 
     at a considerable distance) australia.  i think canada was up there as 
     well.  and britain following somewhere fairly close.  in short, they 
     were grouped together fairly close.  
     
     we can also look at the asian countries - japan, taiwan, south_korea, 
     malaysia, singapore, etc.  i am considering only those countries with 
     similar political and economic systems, because i think it is an 
     important factor.  the murder rates are, i believe, significantly 
     lower than for most european countries as well.
     
     as far as language and mentality..... german, for instance, comes to 
     mind. it is a very structured, precise language, with few exceptions 
     to the grammar rules.  we can certainly draw a parallel to their 
     society, can't we?  of course, i do not want to generalize to 
     everybody of the german persuasion, but the overall aspect of this 
     link is there, in my opinion.
     
     >>could it be that excessive melancholic nuances in the linguistic 
     >>patterns could (more easily) shape the thought processes towards 
     >>such a final resolution?  i am obvioulsy speculating since i lack a 
     >>basic knowledge of finno-ugric languages.   
     >>-cristian
          
     >Interestingly, it was pointed out to me once that that in comparison 
     >with the Canadian and US national anthems, the Hungarian national 
     >anthem is melancholic and that this melancholia is a national trait. 
     >If this is so, what are we to think of the Australians and their 
     >"Waltzing Matilda" anthem -- a nation of party animals and beach 
     >bums?
     
     after sharing dorm rooms with many aussies in cheap london hotels for 
     almost a year, i will respond to your last question with an EMPHATIC 
     YES....;-)
     
     and then, there is the italian national anthem.....maaaan, i can just 
     feel the espresso flowing in my veins....;-)
     
     -cristian
     
     ps: maybe it's me, but........doesn't it feel odd to be so "polite" in 
     our conversation?......not even a small little flicker..;-)

>T. Kocsis > wrote:
     
     >>>In case of the above mentioned region it is a 'custom' that the old
     >>>sick people commit suicide because they don't want to be a burden
     >>>on the family. 
          
     >>is it part of an ancient creed or tradition going back to the 
     >>nomadic/tribal days?
     
     >No, it is not that old. It goes back app. to the 18th -19th century.
     >This was a custom of peasantry, interestingly, the not so poor
     >peasantry (but not the rich as well). They tried to save their rela-
     >tive "welfare" with such customs. Some were even more brutal:
     >old sick people were not fed or just promptly 'put to sleep' .
     
     that's interesting - i wonder if this approach was also used by other 
     nationalities or ethnic folks back then, or was it only a hungarian 
     practice...??
     
     >The history of Hungary was almost a continuous war, and the relati-
     >onship to death remained close, intimate along the centuries. You
     >can clearly see this in the works of our poets or in our folk songs.
     
     yes.  also the history of romania and the balkans, for instance, is 
     extremely bloody and cruel - hell, it still goes on, just look at 
     what's happening in former yugoslavia...:-(
     
     in this context, i also wonder what's the suicide statistic for 
     romania, the balkan countries....??  
     
     >>>You may take into account the alcoholism
          
     >>but there are countries worse off at this chapter (russia, 
     >>non-finish scandinavia, france and the wines_oh_la_la_la_la).
     
     >Do you think ? We are not world champions neither in wine, beer
     >spirits consumption, only  second in spirits drinking  and
     >we are in the leading groups in the other two. France drinks wine,
     >Russia drinks vodka, Hungary drinks everything.
     
     so does this mean that mixing up various spirits gives one a higher 
     "propensity" towards suicide.....cause the hangover is much worse, i 
     assume?....;-)
     
     joke aside, i doubt that alcohol consumption per se has a direct 
     bearing upon the suicidal act.....i think people drink EXCESSIVELY 
     because they are depressed and unhappy in the first place.  the root 
     of the problem is already there.
     
     and there is a difference.  for instance, it is a well-known fact that 
     there are many alcoholics in sweden.  especially among older people.  
     and they drink because they are unhappy, sad, alone.  i know because i 
     lived there for 6 years.  in france, however, people consume more 
     absolute quantities of alcohol (per capita), but it is mostly wine and 
     apperitif drinks.  there is much less sadness and feeling of 
     abandonement and uselessness among old people than in sweden.  maybe 
     the weather factor comes into play as well.  and, undoubtely, the 
     culture.  just compare the societal cinematic depictions of ingmar 
     bergman with, let's say, those of francois truffaut.  biiiiiig 
     difference.   
     
     >>we must consider the possibility that there are significantly less 
     >>effective treatment/coping methods offered by      
     >>counselors/psychologists to suicidal-prone individuals.
     
     >As we know psychology and psychiatry was considered bourgeois
     >remnants by the marxist. It means it was not the favoured science
     >by the communists, which in case of CCCP meant execution under
     >Mr. Stalin.
     
     of course, you're right......i lived over here for way too long so 
     this fact slipped my mind...:-)
     
     >Hungarians don't go to psychiatrist with their problem because
     >they don't know that such thing exists or they don't trust in them,
     >because there is not enough qualified p. around, because it costs
     >money, and because so many neurotic are around it is considered
     >the normal. :) :) :)
     
     yes.  i was in bucharest not long ago this summer and felt the 
     tremendous day_to_day stress a lot (most) people are subjected to.  
     and i'm sure the situation is more or less similar in most other 
     former eastern block countries as well.  hey, i would say with 
     confidence that they are worse off than their counterparts living in 
     budapest.
     
     and then, the question still remains as puzzling as before:  why 
     hungary has a much higher suicide rate than all the other former 
     eastern block countries given (more or less) similar (or worse) living 
     conditions? 
     
     >>could we point out to the language_mentality link ?
     
     >I don't believe in it. There are similar agglutanating languages like
     >Hungarian even in the IE-group but those guys are not big suiciders.
     >
     >Tamas
     
     well, first of all, the fact that hungary, estonia, and finland, 
     countries linked by common ethnicity and origins (more or less) share 
     the top places in suicide rates, is quite a hell of a coincidence.
     
     compare this to the suicide rates in latin-speaking countries such as 
     spain, italy, france, romania - i do not have the exact statistics, 
     but i think it is much lower.  or even to germanic countries as well.
     
     in lack of any other explanations, maybe this fact should not be 
     totally discounted.
     
     then again, after i thought about it for a while, maybe the 
     explanation is more complex than that.  maybe there is not a single 
     cause we can point to, but a multitude of causes which, TOGETHER, can 
     provide a more accurate explanation for it...??...
     
     -cristian

I've been successful using macros and the codes from the character map in
windows.   Works fine for occasional use, and it gives all the Hungarian
"ekezets" except the long u.  I work from Word, and in this way you stay
with the standard U.S. keyboard.  If you want more details let me know.H & G
BROWN ) wrote: : Hi:

: Does anyone know where I can download or order a Hungarian Word
: Processor? Magyar/English preferred. Any assistance appreciated.

: Thx
: Howard
: -- 
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:   |  St. Petersburg  Fla.
: H & G Brown           |  Only I Know When
: *********************************************
-- 
> ========================================================================
  Frank J. Semetko  Columbus Ohio USA:
        OR   
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