(GeorgeD188) wrote:

>Idehalgass, te  Botond, akinek hianyzik egy nehany Kereke!
>Honnan masztal ki a csatornabol a tobbi svabbogarral es patkannyal egyutt?
>Azt hittem, a tortenelem mar feldaralta az ilyen primitiv
>lumpenproletarokat, mint te vagy. Mit akarsz a zsidoktol? Mindet
>megoltetek mar! A nehany tulelo oregtol felsz?
>Amit itt olvastam ,az csak hanyingert okoz. 

>Egy magyar kereszteny ember igy nem beszelhet!  Szegyelld magadat a
>Magyarok Istene elott!
---------------------------------------

RE: Tiborc panasza, avagy miert maradt el a rendszervaltas?
Valasz  (GeorgeD188)
Tiborc vedelmeben irom e part sort, mert hosiesen megirta azt az
igazsagot, amit George baratunk keptelen megemeszteni, de megcafolni
sem es ezert  duheben csak a hanyingerevel vivodik! Persze a magyarok
Igazsagatol  a politikailag helyes demokrataknak mindig  hanyingeruk
van: legyen az Trianon egbekialto igazsagtalansaga vagy a voros horda
beozonlese 1944-ben, amit  ok "felszabadulas"-nak neveznek. Akkortajt
vajon hol volt George, hogy rendreutasitotta volna a felszabaditoit:
"sracok eleg volt mar a nok megeroszakolasabol, a szabadrablasbol, a
gyilkolasbol!.... Hol volt akkor a tiltakozo zsidohang a magyarsag
vedelmere? 

De engedtessek meg, hogy alkalmasint nekunk is lehessen hanyingerunk!
Itt gondolok a Karpat-medenceben azokra a szerencsetlen
ehezo/fagyoskodo  magyar testvereinkre, akiknek minden okuk megvan az
igazi hanyingerre, hiszen  napi ennivalojukat  nem fenyes
vasarcsarnokokban, hanem a szemetben keresgetik!... Gondolok azokra a
magyarokra, akiknek a torkukon nyomjak le a Judaisztikat a budapesti
foiskolan... Gondolok itt azokra a magyarorszagi teve nezokre /s
radiohallgatokra, akik egyebet sem latnak, hallanak mint zsidoszellemu
adasokat, zsido eloadokat, zsido muveszeket... bizony ... AD NAUSEAM!

Nevezett fergek -- marmint Patkanyok es Svabbogarak -- az 1918-as
veres idokre emlekeztetnek, amikor a borkabatos Lenin-fiuk,  az igazi
lumpenproletarok  (ki tudja talan eppen George rokonai?) Kun-Kohn
Bela, Szamuelly es a tobbi rablogyilkos valoban a szennycsatornakbol
masztak elo!  A 133 napos remuralmuk kozel hetszaz artatlan magyart
kuldott a masvilagra! Akkor hol voltak a George-felek, hogy
rendreutasitsak hitsorsosaikat: "hej legnyek eleg volt mar, hat
viselkedik igy igazhitu zsido ember? Szegyelhetnetek magatokat Mozes
elott!"

Es  kedves George On rosszul hiszi,  amikor azt irja, hogy a
tortenelem bennunket feldaralt! Mindenkit azert nem daraltak fel, ...
maradtunk meg jonehanyan azok kozul, akiket Rakosi-Rozenkranz Matyi
es Kadar-Csermanek Janko idejeben az AVH/AVO verolegenyei  a
budapesti  emberhusdaraloba a halaknak csak azert nem dobtak be, mert
mar tul sok lett volna a daralthus.  Ehelyett kozuluk sokat
osszedrotozva foldeltek el a dogtemetobe...!

A kerdest, -- hogy mit akarunk mi a zsidoktol,--  forditsuk meg! Mit
akarnak a zsidok tolunk magyaroktol? Ha Montefiore Mozes szazadelejei
uzenetet nezzuk, akkor a zsidok nem akarnak kevesebbet, mint egesz
Magyarorszagot, s benne a magyar nepet pedig rabszolganak! Mert a
viselkedesukkel ezt le sem tagadhatjak.. 

A hirek szerint nemcsak zsiros karteritest, hanem az utolso vercseppet
is ki szeretnek sajtolni a kobol!. Pedig ez nehez lesz, mert a Jad
Vashem-i holocaust muzeum 334 ezerrol ir, Martin Gilbert angliai
tortenesz pedig csak 200 ezerrol. Nos, Stark Tamas szerint  az eddigi
"600 ezer magyarorszagi zsido aldozat"  az elmult hetekben leapadt 450
ezerre, akarcsak par evvel ezelott az auschwitzi 4 millio aldozat
szama lecsokkent 1.3 milliora! S minderre mit mond Jehuda Bauer
izraeli tortenesz  professzor? "Vigyazat, a  hat millios szam  nem
csokkent, csupan atertekelodott!"....

Nem hinnem, hogy 50 esztendos bolsevista  rabszolgasag utan valaki is
felne - akarmilyen koru zsidotol - mert azok,  akik megjartak a zsido
avosok kinzokamrait.....jol ismerik a modszereket. (De errol majd
legkozelebb, ha valakit egyaltalan erdekel..)

Botond  bar kitunoen, a valosagnak teljesen hu kepet festett a
valosagrol, csupan diohejban irta meg a jelenlegi szomoru magyar
sorsot, amitol varhatoan George nem kap hanyingert, de mi nemzeti
erzesu magyarok valamennyien igen!  
--
(Toth Judit)

 (AND Books) wrote:

>e'rdekes folyoiratot tala'ltam: KOTOTT KEVE, mely minden ho'nap elso" e's
>harmadik szerda'ja'n jelenik meg...az un MMMJ alapaitva'ny-tol, 2740 Abony, 
>Ujszaszi ut 18., kiadva'nya...

>ismeri valaki ezt as ujs'agot? irok: Kiraly Izabella, Szathmary Atilla, 
>Baraba'sa Tama's, Badiny Jos Ferenc, Varga Be'la, Csornai Istva'n, Szemercy
>L. Zsigmond, Sokoray Laszlo, Kesthhelyi Zsolt...

>ismeri valaki ezt a lapot?

>janos

===
Kedves Janos!
Ismerem a Kotott Kevet, nemregen lepett a sajtoarena porondjara. 
De van egy masik lap is, a 24. ORA. Ezt ismeri-e? Otthon is
megjelenik, de a  netscapen is megtalalhato:
http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
Udvozlettel....."K"

Igazsagot Magyarorszagnak!

RE: Tiborc panasza, avagy miert maradt el a rendszervaltas?
Valasz  (GeorgeD188)
Tiborc vedelmeben irom e part sort, mert hosiesen megirta azt az
igazsagot, amit George baratunk keptelen megemeszteni, de megcafolni
sem es ezert  duheben csak a hanyingerevel vivodik! Persze a magyarok
Igazsagatol  a politikailag helyes demokrataknak mindig  hanyingeruk
van: legyen az Trianon egbekialto igazsagtalansaga vagy a voros horda
beozonlese 1944-ben, amit  ok "felszabadulas"-nak neveznek. Akkortajt
vajon hol volt George, hogy rendreutasitotta volna a felszabaditoit:
"sracok eleg volt mar a nok megeroszakolasabol, a szabadrablasbol, a
gyilkolasbol!.... Hol volt akkor a tiltakozo zsidohang a magyarsag
vedelmere? 

De engedtessek meg, hogy alkalmasint nekunk is lehessen hanyingerunk!
Itt gondolok a Karpat-medenceben azokra a szerencsetlen
ehezo/fagyoskodo  magyar testvereinkre, akiknek minden okuk megvan az
igazi hanyingerre, hiszen  napi ennivalojukat  nem fenyes
vasarcsarnokokban, hanem a szemetben keresgetik!... Gondolok azokra a
magyarokra, akiknek a torkukon nyomjak le a Judaisztikat a budapesti
foiskolan... Gondolok itt azokra a magyarorszagi teve nezokre /s
radiohallgatokra, akik egyebet sem latnak, hallanak mint zsidoszellemu
adasokat, zsido eloadokat, zsido muveszeket... bizony ... AD NAUSEAM!

Nevezett fergek -- marmint Patkanyok es Svabbogarak -- az 1918-as
veres idokre emlekeztetnek, amikor a borkabatos Lenin-fiuk,  az igazi
lumpenproletarok  (ki tudja talan eppen George rokonai?) Kun-Kohn
Bela, Szamuelly es a tobbi rablogyilkos valoban a szennycsatornakbol
masztak elo!  A 133 napos remuralmuk kozel hetszaz artatlan magyart
kuldott a masvilagra! Akkor hol voltak a George-felek, hogy
rendreutasitsak hitsorsosaikat: "hej legnyek eleg volt mar, hat
viselkedik igy igazhitu zsido ember? Szegyelhetnetek magatokat Mozes
elott!"

Es  kedves George On rosszul hiszi,  amikor azt irja, hogy a
tortenelem bennunket feldaralt! Mindenkit azert nem daraltak fel, ...
maradtunk meg jonehanyan azok kozul, akiket Rakosi-Rozenkranz Matyi
es Kadar-Csermanek Janko idejeben az AVH/AVO verolegenyei  a
budapesti  emberhusdaraloba a halaknak csak azert nem dobtak be, mert
mar tul sok lett volna a daralthus.  Ehelyett kozuluk sokat
osszedrotozva foldeltek el a dogtemetobe...!

A kerdest, -- hogy mit akarunk mi a zsidoktol,--  forditsuk meg! Mit
akarnak a zsidok tolunk magyaroktol? Ha Montefiore Mozes szazadelejei
uzenetet nezzuk, akkor a zsidok nem akarnak kevesebbet, mint egesz
Magyarorszagot, s benne a magyar nepet pedig rabszolganak! Mert a
viselkedesukkel ezt le sem tagadhatjak.. 

A hirek szerint nemcsak zsiros karteritest, hanem az utolso vercseppet
is ki szeretnek sajtolni a kobol!. Pedig ez nehez lesz, mert a Jad
Vashem-i holocaust muzeum 334 ezerrol ir, Martin Gilbert angliai
tortenesz pedig csak 200 ezerrol. Nos, Stark Tamas szerint  az eddigi
"600 ezer magyarorszagi zsido aldozat"  az elmult hetekben leapadt 450
ezerre, akarcsak par evvel ezelott az auschwitzi 4 millio aldozat
szama lecsokkent 1.3 milliora! S minderre mit mond Jehuda Bauer
izraeli tortenesz  professzor? "Vigyazat, a  hat millios szam  nem
csokkent, csupan atertekelodott!"....

Nem hinnem, hogy 50 esztendos bolsevista  rabszolgasag utan valaki is
felne - akarmilyen koru zsidotol - mert azok,  akik megjartak a zsido
avosok kinzokamrait.....jol ismerik a modszereket. (De errol majd
legkozelebb, ha valakit egyaltalan erdekel..)

Botond  bar kitunoen, a valosagnak teljesen hu kepet festett a
valosagrol, csupan diohejban irta meg a jelenlegi szomoru magyar
sorsot, amitol varhatoan George nem kap hanyingert, de mi nemzeti
erzesu magyarok valamennyien igen!  
--
(Toth Judit)

In article >,  wrote:


> OK, let´s start putting things into points:
> 1. The hungarian revolution of 1848 against the Austrian has been a 
>     result of the fact, that the Austrian ruler did not follow the 
>    principles of St.Istvan any more. The Hungarians couldn´t accept
>     that. This shows, that they accepted it all the centuries before.

Not especially. A moral point can be forgotton for a time and then revived
among the common people, to the consternation of the ruler. For a modern
example, look to the US where it just happened in a time compressed 
manner.

In 1992, Americans in general "forgot" about their moral standards and
elected an obvious adulterer. By 1994 they remembered what they had 
"forgotton" and punished the adulterer's party with the worst defeat in
many decades.

> 2. The Hungarian authorities did not trate especially the Romanians   
>     for centuries, but it is true, that all over Europe each authority 
>    trated the "working people" of his own country. So did the Hungarian  
>     authorities too. On your side you have had rulers like "Dracula" 
>    that time. Just remember: Many romanians came to Transsylvania, because 
>    of the better Life there. They always had to be afraid of their own 
>    rulers. ( There is no difference today ).

If it was simply a manner of nobility treating the common man poorly 
that would be different. You are correct that there were unjust rulers
all over Europe in that timeframe. If this is really the case then perhaps
you could tell me what happened to the Transylvanian nobility of Romanian
ethnicity? As I understand it they were forced to Magyarize their names and
pretend to be Hungarians in order to keep their positions. This does not
fit in with your theory. Also, if it as you say a case of nobility oppressing
the peasantry, why were restrictions in place for those of the Orthodox faith
with regard to education. This law had the effect of keeping Romanians, no
matter what their class, out of school, ignorant, and powerless. If there
was no special attack on Romanians, why were romanians not even recognized
as an ethnic group by the Hungarians? Wasn't this one of the reasons that
the Byzantine Rite Catholics were formed around 1700? Somehow this
point does not seem very convincing to me.

> 3. Would you say, U.S.A. belongs to the Red Indians? I would, but this 
>     does not help them any more. They are dead. Europeans are bestialic
>     animals. And even today, the Red Indians don´t get any rights. 

Much of the US was conquered in contravention of previous treaties with
the indians. However, some of it was bought without violence. I think that
you would have to agree that at least those portions do not belong to the
indians anymore. 

As for the Indians today, what they need is to be left alone, not have
BIA (Bureau for Indian Affairs) socialists manage them into poverty, 
alcoholism, and general misery. Socialism is socialism everywhere and
produces the same misery it did in Romania anywhere it is tried. 

> The king was Austrian. The Austrian politics concentrated on "assimilating" 
> minorities. This was the beginning of a very dark period in history, which 
> is still going on. 

This may very well be true. However, I would suspect that any Austrian
assimilation plans would be focused on turning other ethnics into Austrians,
not Hungarians. Since Romanians were being encouraged to become Hungarians,
not Austrians, it seems logical that it was not the Austrians who were
to be condemned for this action, but the Hungarians.

> I am seriously looking for a friendship between
> Hungarians and Romanians. I know a few elder Romanians, who told me, that
> in the past, the Hungarians and Romanians liked each other. The problem
> is, that we are both "prepared" for fighting against each other.

I don't have any problems with any Hungarian who is willing to follow a
few simple rules. I hope you don't find these rules objectionable.

1. Don't try to tell me that I am a Hungarian. It's not true and it only
makes me mad. BTW: this has actually happened to me personally.

2. Don't agitate for Transylvania to be removed from Romania and be attached
to Hungary. It isn't going to happen and it only makes me (and all other 
Romanians) mad.

> Romania could be a very rich country, just like Hungary has been for 
> centuries, but your politicians doesn´t want you to be rich. They will
> keep on working on the fight between the minorities in your country,
> because this is their firewall against the "poor people" there. Let
> the people fight against each other, so they won´t fight against you. 

This point has my complete agreement. Divide et imperat is in constant
use by Iliescu & company.

When we argue over historical fact, I have my opinions and you have yours.
I'm not going to break your legs over yours and I hope you feel the same
way. We need to take the historical arguments out of the streets and
coffee shops and put them back in academia where they belong.

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

"Imre Olajos, Jr." > wrote:

>Csupan egy kerdesem lenne:

>Ki szabaditotta rank ezt a SiliconValley.com csoportot? (Felolem ugyan
>azt irnak be az SCM-be, amit akarnak, elvegre szolasszabadsag van, csak
>kivancsi vagyok...)

Enyje mar, hat azt hittuk, hogy "a massag az szep"? Nem? Mi lett a
turelmesseggel?

>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>LaLa (Imre Olajos, Jr.) En lenni magyar [8-)  _/ean /\/\ichel _/arre and
>WWW : http://homepage.interaccess.com/~lala           -=\/=- angelis fan
>Home:  (USA, Chicago suburbs -> GO BULLS!)     __o
>Tel.: (708) 691-1622 (also a fax & message recorder)             _-\<,_
>Work:  (Lucent, Tel.:1-708-979-3762)         (_)/ (_)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am currently looking for a job in Hungary.  I will be going to
Hungary in July for about three weeks, so I can interview with someone
then.

I work with information.  I have a great knack for taking raw data and
turning it into useful information for decision making.  Here are some
other things about me:

*Financial and Reporting Information Analyst (last six years)
*MBA with undergraduate work in Economics and German
*Former Officer of the United States Army (MI)
*Languages include Hungarian, German and French

If anybody can help me with my job quest, or point me in the right
direction, I would appreciate it.

I can fax my resume and references or send them electronically.

Elore Koszonom.

Nick Szabo

I am a Hungarian business man in the U.S. looking for 
opportunities to import or export goods to or from Hungary.
I have owned and operated my own business for the past 30 years.
Please e-mail me with any such opportunities.
My e-mail address is 
Andrew Ivanyi

-- 
-----
Importing/Exporting to/from Hungary
-----

Mihnea Marinescu > wrote:

 wrote:
>> 
>> Because other nations did not give the same freedom to their minorities, the
>> hungarians gave them. St. Istvan (St. Steven) wanted hungary to be a multicu
ltural
>> nation. Maybe there have been some dark periods in history, but most of the 
time
>> hungarians did not kick your ass the way you did with them.

>Come on this is too much!
>I don't know what St. Istvan wanted at the end of the 10th century
>(and frankly I doubt about the "liberal views" of any 10th century
>ruler), the way the Hungarian authorities trated the Romanians in
>Transylvania for centuries is in no way an example of friendly conduct.
>And if you are in any doubt, let me tell you that two of my grand-
>grand-parents left Transylvania in 1907-1909 because of the "good"
>treatment of the Hungarian authorities (notice that I'm not saying the
>Hungarians). In both cases they left almost everything (they were not
>exactly rich but they had a house, some land, a lot of sheep). One of
>them was living in Covasna (in a area with Hungarian majority then and
>now) the other in Fagaras (in and area with Romanian majority then
>and now).

>Trying to put history "work" for you doesn't realy help!

>However, I do agree that what happened in the past (even if it is 
>a recent past) should not damage the chances for the future and I
>strongly agree that Transylvania's history is both Romanian and
>Hungarian (I would add German also) and there is place for a better 
>treatment of Hungarians by the Romanian authorities today. There is
>also place for a better treatment of Romanians (by the Romanian
>authorities) today!

>Regards,
>Mihnea.

----
Dear Mihnea!

February 24th, 1996 (Canada)

Recognizing the disease  is almost  halfway to recovery... or so they
say! You correctly admitted that Rumanians and Hungarians get bad
treatment from the present Rumanian authorities. -- No kidding!? -- So
what are we  going to do about it?  Have we discovered our common
enemy yet? NO! We cannot do anything about it until we all realize
that politically motivated groups - with the effective tools of
chauvinistic brainwashing and falsification  of history  - have always
succeeded to keep us at each others throat. It is in their very best
interest! This is what keeps them in power. 

You see, until we fight each other their skin is safe!

The definition of ethnocide is any action by representatives of a
dominant culture which aims at obliterating another socio-cultural
tradition through a coercive policy of assimilation is ipso facto
ethnocide! Rumania uses two forms of ethnocide against its minorities:
violent and non-violent. Therefore, the fact that the number Rumanians
of today have reached almost 30 millions is sufficient proof  to say,
that over the centuries they could not have been very badly treated by
the Hungarians,... because  generally the well being and freedom  of
an ethnic community is directly proportional with multiplying!

As you well know  there is suffering ... and there is SUFFERING.
Hungarian today suffer not only beacuse of misery brought on by the
peace treaties of Trianon, Paris  and communism, but because of their
ethnicity also!

The Transylvanian Hungarians, this almost three million strong
cultural community - especially since the unfamous Peace Treaty of
Trianon - is suffering terribly under the heavy-handed ethnic policy
of neo-communist government - just like it suffered under "the Genious
of the Carpathians" the shoemaker Ceaucescu. Newly arrived refugees in
the West tell of the horrors of ethnocide!

Now, Western publications dealing with Rumania have been quite
tolerant and accepting of the government's policies. I wonder why?
Recent Rumanian versions  have been written by politically motivated
writers and are blatantly biased to  the point of falsifying and
inventing historical events.

A well-known authoritiy on the subject in the USA is  Fischer-Galati
who wrote in 1978: "The political requirements made mandatory not only
the reinterpretation of Rumanian history but also the falsification of
data.... The essential task of Rumanian historiography had been to
provide 'a scientific basis' for validating  the varying claims
advanced by leaders of the Rumanian communist movement in search of
legitimacy."

And yes, there is the theory of "continuity", which is so eloquently
refuted by the eminent Rumanian scholar Ovid Densusianu who wrote that
"the Rumanian people is not served by those who seek to denature the
facts and to deceive themselves but deserves a balanced, objective and
modern description of its troubled past" (Histoire de la langue
roumaine, 1901)

Although not autochtonous in Transylvania, Rumanians have lived at
least in some parts of that country for almost 800 years which must be
sufficient for that "historical right" which so many historians and
politicians tried, wrongly, to derive from a legendary origin from
Trajan's soldiers and  the Dacians This imlpies the right of living in
Transylvania, but NOT the justification of suppressing other
nationalities who not only existed earlier in Transylvania but also
played a very important role in the development of Rumanian national
culture.

There is nothing wrong in emphasizing the positive aspects of the
history of one's own nation and to try to educate the youth to respect
their nation's past. BUT it is not, as stated by Densusianu, real
patriotism (I called it sick chauvinism!) to CONCEAL the truth and
deceive onself! The propagation of the theory of continuity conceals
many elementary facts and stresses obviously erroneous statements.
It is needless to emphasize the danger  when the Rumanians are said to
be THE ONLY PEOPLE at home in South East Europe, all others are called
"later colonists, invaders, barbarians and strangers!" What is next?
Ethnic cleansing "a la serbians"?

In conclusion now I ask you  readers out there in cyberspace: how can
the basic human rights of the other nationalities - who were by the
way never asked (or even consulted!) by any kind of referendum if they
wish to become Rumanians, but together with their ancient homeland
were literally thrown under alien rule  - living in Rumania (about 15%
of the total population) be guaranteed in such atmosphere?

Any answers out there? Any questions?....
With regards.

 (Laurie Koloski) wrote:

>I'm planning to teach a course in post-1945 East European history in which
>I'll be using fiction as the primary reading material. Any ideas for Hungarian
>novels or short stories which could give students a good sense of the
>postwar Bulgarian experience? Any and all suggestions are welcome, although
>all books must be available in English translation. I'm familiar with Konrad's
>works, but otherwise know very little of Hungarian literature.

>Thanks for your input!

In order to get a "balanced" view of the Hungarian history you must
consult not only works by writers of the socalled leftwingers but also
study the writings of intellectuals on the right side, who tend to
present the facts more truthfully, otherwise all you get is a biased
view of the "liberation story" of the unfamous soviet red army and
their collaborators!
Good luck in your researches!
February 24th, 1996

Why the dickens is this posted to all the above news groups when some of 
us e.g. soc.culture.kenya have got no idea as to what you have written 
below!!! Get a life and stop posting to all the groups but rather only to 
the relevant ones. However this may be beyond your comprehension.

Rakwar

On 24 Feb 1996, Tzar01 wrote:

> Perdoname por favor, per en espanol, tienes ques decir "toma," no "tome"
> cuando estas hablando en la persona primavera.  Y hay personas en corea
> quien pueden hablar en espanol mejor que las personas quien pueden hablar
> en ingles, porque espanol es mas facil para decir para las personas quien
> no tienen las letras "l" e "r" en sus lenguas nativas.
> 
> Hasta luego,
> 
> Pete
> 
>

Judith Toth ) wrote:

: We cannot do anything about it until we all realize
: that politically motivated groups - with the effective tools of
: chauvinistic brainwashing and falsification  of history  - have always
: succeeded to keep us at each others throat.

I can easily imagine that you are referring only to the romanian side.
But have you have ever contemplated the possibility that hungarians
(even those in Canada) are also brainwashed with chauvinism and falsifications
of history by some hungarians groups ?
See later for examples.

: Therefore, the fact that the number Rumanians
: of today have reached almost 30 millions is sufficient proof  to say,
: that over the centuries they could not have been very badly treated by
: the Hungarians,... because  generally the well being and freedom  of
: an ethnic community is directly proportional with multiplying!

Now that is an interesting statement.
Based on the same principle should I conclude that the allmost 25 million
of black people in South Africa where well treated by the Europeans there ? 


: The Transylvanian Hungarians, this almost three million strong
: cultural community

Where did you get these numbers ?
The hungarian minority in Romania numbers under 1.7 million people.

: - especially since the unfamous Peace Treaty of
: Trianon - 

I see. How about the unjust Peace Treaty of Versailles and the unjust
fate of World War I and World War II ?
Did you know that this could be called revisionism ?

: Newly arrived refugees in the West tell of the horrors of ethnocide!

It is quite possible in case those refugees came from Bosnia.

: Now, Western publications dealing with Rumania have been quite
: tolerant and accepting of the government's policies. I wonder why?

May be because the situation is not as dark as you try to depict it ?

: Recent Rumanian versions  have been written by politically motivated
: writers and are blatantly biased to  the point of falsifying and
: inventing historical events.

I don't know what events are you refering. In case that you are refering
to the continuity theory this is not a recent "invention". Actually
it doesn't look to be an invention at all. Is just the best explanation
for the genesis of the romanian people.

: A well-known authoritiy on the subject in the USA is  Fischer-Galati
: who wrote in 1978: "The political requirements made mandatory not only
: the reinterpretation of Rumanian history but also the falsification of
: data.... The essential task of Rumanian historiography had been to
: provide 'a scientific basis' for validating  the varying claims
: advanced by leaders of the Rumanian communist movement in search of
: legitimacy."

Of course. Communist tried to present every historical event from a
"class strugle" perspective. I can easily imagine that this happened
in all ex- communist countries.

: Although not autochtonous in Transylvania, Rumanians have lived at
: least in some parts of that country for almost 800 years which must be
: sufficient for that "historical right"

That is very generous of you. But romanians are autochtonus in 
Transylvania. In any case they are "more autochtonus" than the
hungarians are. 
Please refer to the chronicles of Anonymus and Nestor who mention
the fact that hungarians found a latin speaking population when
they arrived in Transylvania.

Regards,

Cristian Alb

En egy politikai menekult vagyok a magyar kommunista rendszer elol.
1968-ban disszidaltam nagyon veszelyes korulmenyek kozott egy katolikus 
Feleseggel es egy 4 eves gyerekkel.  8 eves koromban magyar hazamfiai, a
nyilasok vittek a Dunapartra 30 masikkal kivegezni, a Jo Isten megmentett.

Tisztelettel: egy Hazafias Magyar

Hungarian born, Canadian businessman-accountant   will travel to Budapest
during the summer,1996 for three weeks.

   Will take on assignments to look for business opportunities,  do
investment and business evaluations and audits.

-- 
Robert Gelb, Robert Gelb and Associates Inc.                 
12 Bradenton Drive,Willowdale,Ontario M2H 1Y5, Canada                          
                                                                               
                                                                            
(905)940-2380, (905)946-1734 FAX                       
e-mail: 
- Investment Specialists             
- Business Plan Preparations and Evaluations,                           - Busin
ess Management and Financial Consulting                       
- Mergers and acquisitions

 (Judith Toth) wrote:


>Recognizing the disease  is almost  halfway to recovery... 

All we need now is the medicine! Got any ideas, doctor?

>You see, until we fight each other their skin is safe!

Talk that talk, reverend! You're doing a fine job for peace!

> Rumania uses two forms of ethnocide against its minorities:
>violent and non-violent. 

Wow! Didn't know was that... violent! How about some facts, numbers
and don't forget to mention your independent sources!

>Therefore, the fact that the number Rumanians
>of today have reached almost 30 millions is sufficient proof  to say,
>that over the centuries they could not have been very badly treated by
>the Hungarians,

Aha! I've always suspected the Hungarians took great care of the
Romanians of Moldova, Wallachia and Dobrogea, plus, of course, those
of Canada, US, Australia... etc. (got to get to 30 millions somehow,
don't we?) Now I am sure you will produce facts, numbers, and don't
forget to mention your independent sources!

>As you well know  there is suffering ... and there is SUFFERING.
>Hungarian today suffer not only beacuse of misery brought on by the
>peace treaties of Trianon, Paris  and communism, but because of their
>ethnicity also!

Of course, you will produce facts, numbers, and don't forget to
mention your independent sources!

>The Transylvanian Hungarians, this almost three million strong

Now wait a second! You mean our Hungarian brothers have started
enjoying the ewe milk cheese too? You know, that famous cheese that
made the Romanians so prolific that in about 2 weeks they became the
majority in Transilvania way back when. As far as suporting your claim
of three million strong Transilvanian Hungarians, I am sure you will
produce facts, numbers, and don't forget to mention your independent
sources!

>A well-known authoritiy on the subject in the USA is  Fischer-Galati

You mean the Nobel prize winner Fischer-Galati, right? As for his
"well-known authority on the subject" I am sure you will produce
facts, numbers and don't forget to mention your independent sources!
By the way, what's his fee nowadays? We might wanna hire him too!

>And yes, there is the theory of "continuity", which is so eloquently
>refuted by the eminent Rumanian scholar Ovid Densusianu

In deed he was an eminent scholar, and for sure the only one, since
the Romanians, barbarians as they were, did not have any other
scholars at all! By the way, do you happen to know what his area of
expertise was: history, or maybe archaeology, I presume? I am sure you
will produce facts, numbers, and don't forget to mention your
independent sources!

>Although not autochtonous in Transylvania, Rumanians have lived at
>least in some parts of that country for almost 800 years which must be
>sufficient for that "historical right"

Oh, thank you so very much indeed! You mean Romanians do have some
"historical rights" to "some parts" of Transilvania although they did
not arrive there on the back of a horse from the deep end of Asia?
That's mighty thoughtful of you!

>There is nothing wrong in emphasizing the positive aspects of the
>history of one's own nation

The horse! We got to emphasize the horse! Long live the horse!

>BUT it is not, as stated by Densusianu, real
>patriotism (I called it sick chauvinism!) to CONCEAL the truth and
>deceive onself! 

No kidding! You really think so? Well, that being the case, I sure
hope you're not as sick as I first thought, and will soon recover from
your chauvinism!

>The propagation of the theory of continuity conceals
>many elementary facts and stresses obviously erroneous statements.

Why I am sure you will produce facts, numbers and don't forget to
mention your independent sources!

>It is needless to emphasize the danger  when the Rumanians are said to
>be THE ONLY PEOPLE at home in South East Europe,
>all others are called "later colonists, invaders, barbarians and strangers!" 
>What is next? Ethnic cleansing "a la serbians"?

Now that's terrible! You mean to say that there are people who call
Attila, Arpad and all those nice, peaceful and gentle Asian tourists
and bearers of the highest civilization them poor European bastards
have ever known "invaders, barbarians and strangers"?  I am totally
shocked! BTW, I just love your Franglais! "A la serbians" sounds so,
so educated indeed!

>In conclusion now I ask you  readers out there in cyberspace: how can
>the basic human rights of the other nationalities - who were by the
>way never asked (or even consulted!) by any kind of referendum if they
>wish to become Rumanians

Sure! Why don't we all ask the United Nations to soponsor a referendum
in Transilvania and, by George, let the chips fall where they may! I
had this wild vision of a Greater Hungary with 11 million Hungarians
and 9 million Romanians (all of whom just love to eat ewe milk
cheese)!

>but together with their ancient homeland were literally thrown under 
>alien rule 

Told you so! Them Chinese are good for nothing: they took over the
ancient homeland of the Hungarians!

>Any answers out there?

I'm sure you have all the answers,  and so will we, as soon as you
produce facts, numbers, and don't forget to mention your independent
sources!

>Any questions?....

Don't mind if I do: have you been drinking lately? Tsk, tsk, tsk!

Dorin Taranul

In article >,
GeorgeD188 > wrote:
| En egy politikai menekult vagyok a magyar kommunista rendszer elol.
| 1968-ban disszidaltam nagyon veszelyes korulmenyek kozott egy katolikus 
| Feleseggel es egy 4 eves gyerekkel.  8 eves koromban magyar hazamfiai, a
| nyilasok vittek a Dunapartra 30 masikkal kivegezni, a Jo Isten megmentett.
| 
| Tisztelettel: egy Hazafias Magyar


Meg egy megjegyzes Tiborc panaszahoz...

Semmi kifogasom nincs az ellen ha valaki gyuloli azokat akik
kinoztak, megalaztak masokat, allati modon
viselkedtek. Mennyiben erdekes / fontos az hogy ezek az
emberek kozul sokan zsido szarmazasuak voltak? Az olasz
maffia kozismerten vallasos katolikus - de mennyiben erdekes
ez? A maffiozokat jogosan tartoztatjak le - de teljesen
lenyegtelen hogy Olaszok, vagy hogy Katolikuso - nem azert
maffiozok mert Olaszok, es nem is azert mert Katolikusok...

Istvan

 (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
>In article >,
...
>Ont ki valasztotta meg hogy a nemzeti erzesu magyarok
>neveben beszeljen? 

En es tobb ismerosom egyhangulag megvalasztanank.

tovabba: egy magyar eloszor is magyar, es aztan vallasos. 
Egy zsido pedig elsosorban zsido, es tartozkodasi orszaga pedig 
masodlagos.  Ugyhogy ha igazan zsido vagy, ne hivd magad magyarnak.

In article >,
Judith Toth > wrote:
|  (GeorgeD188) wrote:
| 
| RE: Tiborc panasza, avagy miert maradt el a rendszervaltas?
| Valasz  (GeorgeD188)
| Tiborc vedelmeben irom e part sort, mert hosiesen megirta azt az
| igazsagot, amit George baratunk keptelen megemeszteni, de megcafolni
| sem es ezert  duheben csak a hanyingerevel vivodik! Persze a magyarok
| Igazsagatol  a politikailag helyes demokrataknak mindig  hanyingeruk
| van: legyen az Trianon egbekialto igazsagtalansaga vagy a voros horda
| beozonlese 1944-ben, amit  ok "felszabadulas"-nak neveznek. Akkortajt
| vajon hol volt George, hogy rendreutasitotta volna a felszabaditoit:
| "sracok eleg volt mar a nok megeroszakolasabol, a szabadrablasbol, a
| gyilkolasbol!.... Hol volt akkor a tiltakozo zsidohang a magyarsag
| vedelmere? 

Eloszor is hany Zsido nevre kivancsi? Masodszor is - on
tenyleg nem tudja hogy rengeteg zsidot (zsido Magyart!) is
elvittek az Oroszok, kitelepitettek a kommunistak,
megeroszakoltak?
Ismet kerdezem - hany nevre kivancsi.


| 
| De engedtessek meg, hogy alkalmasint nekunk is lehessen hanyingerunk!
| Itt gondolok a Karpat-medenceben azokra a szerencsetlen
| ehezo/fagyoskodo  magyar testvereinkre, akiknek minden okuk megvan az
| igazi hanyingerre, hiszen  napi ennivalojukat  nem fenyes
| vasarcsarnokokban, hanem a szemetben keresgetik!... 

Ismet kerdezem - hany elesett zsido oreg ember es asszony
nevere kivancsi akik ugyancsak nyomorognak? 

Gondolok azokra a
| magyarokra, akiknek a torkukon nyomjak le a Judaisztikat a budapesti
| foiskolan... Gondolok itt azokra a magyarorszagi teve nezokre /s
| radiohallgatokra, akik egyebet sem latnak, hallanak mint zsidoszellemu
| adasokat, zsido eloadokat, zsido muveszeket... bizony
.... AD NAUSEAM!

On szerint mit jelent a zsidoszellemu adas? Ismet kerdezem -
milyen kereszteny egyhazi adasrol tud amelyek nem kapnak
teret?
Milyen gyakran lat zsido eloadasokat?

| Nevezett fergek -- marmint Patkanyok es Svabbogarak -- az 1918-as
| veres idokre emlekeztetnek, amikor a borkabatos Lenin-fiuk,  az igazi
| lumpenproletarok  (ki tudja talan eppen George rokonai?) 

Ki tudja.. talan a magae...

| Kun-Kohn
| Bela, Szamuelly es a tobbi rablogyilkos valoban a szennycsatornakbol
| masztak elo!  A 133 napos remuralmuk kozel hetszaz artatlan magyart
| kuldott a masvilagra! 

Es hany magyar zsidot?

| Akkor hol voltak a George-felek, hogy
| rendreutasitsak hitsorsosaikat: "hej legnyek eleg volt mar, hat
| viselkedik igy igazhitu zsido ember? Szegyelhetnetek magatokat Mozes
| elott!"

Miert hogy viselkedett egy igazhitu zsido ember a useneten
amire rendreutasitasra lett volna szukseg?

| A kerdest, -- hogy mit akarunk mi a zsidoktol,--  forditsuk meg! Mit
| akarnak a zsidok tolunk magyaroktol? Ha Montefiore Mozes szazadelejei
| uzenetet nezzuk, akkor a zsidok nem akarnak kevesebbet, mint egesz
| Magyarorszagot, s benne a magyar nepet pedig rabszolganak! Mert a
| viselkedesukkel ezt le sem tagadhatjak.. 

Persze... en mint Magyar zsido elmegyek es eladom magam
rabszolganak..
Mondja, hany zsido rabszolgaarust latott magyarokat arulni?
Egyebkent bevallhatom onnek - magat mar tobben kineztuk
rabszolganak.
Mar csak azt nem tudjuk eldonteni, hogy a veret vegyuk a
paszkakesziteshez, vagy a gyapotultetvenyeinken hasznaljuk fel.
 
| A hirek szerint nemcsak zsiros karteritest, hanem az utolso vercseppet
| is ki szeretnek sajtolni a kobol!. Pedig ez nehez lesz, mert a Jad
| Vashem-i holocaust muzeum 334 ezerrol ir, Martin Gilbert angliai
| tortenesz pedig csak 200 ezerrol. 

300 ezer MIROL? Lenne egy kicsit konkretabb? Es mi koze van
ennek a karteriteshez? Tudomasom szerint ahhoz bizonyitek
kell, ugyhogy a Jad Vasemnek ehhez semmi koze, Martin
Gilberthez meg vegkepp 


Nos, Stark Tamas szerint  az eddigi
| "600 ezer magyarorszagi zsido aldozat"  az elmult hetekben leapadt 450
| ezerre, akarcsak par evvel ezelott az auschwitzi 4 millio aldozat
| szama lecsokkent 1.3 milliora! 
| S minderre mit mond Jehuda Bauer
| izraeli tortenesz  professzor? "Vigyazat, a  hat millios szam  nem
| csokkent, csupan atertekelodott!"....

Szoval on olyant meg nem hallott hogy torteneszek nem azonos
definiciokat hasznalnak, vagy nem azonos kovetkeztetesre
jutnak... 


| Nem hinnem, hogy 50 esztendos bolsevista  rabszolgasag utan valaki is
| felne - akarmilyen koru zsidotol - mert azok,  akik megjartak a zsido
| avosok kinzokamrait.....jol ismerik a modszereket. (De errol majd
| legkozelebb, ha valakit egyaltalan erdekel..)

Mondja es azok akik a katolikus avosoket jartak meg a
katolikusoktol felnek? Esetleg azok a Zsidok akiket
megkinzott az avo maguktol felnek? 

| Botond  bar kitunoen, a valosagnak teljesen hu kepet festett a
| valosagrol, csupan diohejban irta meg a jelenlegi szomoru magyar
| sorsot, amitol varhatoan George nem kap hanyingert, de mi nemzeti
| erzesu magyarok valamennyien igen!  

Ont ki valasztotta meg hogy a nemzeti erzesu magyarok
neveben beszeljen?

Szerintem nyissunk egy "soc.culture.magyar.igazmagyar.antiszemita" csoportot.
Csak ma lattam ket irast ami priman passzolna. Csak pragmatikusan!



--------------------------------------
Peter Szaszvari
http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm
--------------------------------------