- Why Continuing Free Trade and Democracy Policies -
                 - in Eastern Europe is Wrong -

        Q: In Poland, 40 to 50 per cent of the population is now
below the socially minimum standard. What does this say about the
shock therapy policies that Jeffrey Sachs is taking credit for?
        LYNDON LAROUCHE: Jeffrey Sachs is a bad joke. He's like, you
know, he's like a bomb that whistles and actually does not blow
up. He's a fool. I wouldn't want to dignify the situation by
suggesting he's even a qualified criminal. He's largely an
incompetent.
        This is the policy which Mrs. Thatcher, then supported by
the cat on the tail of her flying broom, George Bush, put up.
This was done openly in 1989; George Bush came on board at the
end of '89 and the beginning of '90. And that was saying ``okay,
the East Bloc is crumbling. The former Soviet empire is
disintegrating. Let us now take advantage of the situation, using
occupational, or shall we say carpetbagging methods, to ensure
that these countries, under the direction of IMF and other
carpetbaggers, or George Soros as a key carpetbagger, working for
the London interests on this, go in and loot the countries to the
point that they could {never} rise again.''
        Characteristic of that in every one of these areas, you have
a pair of phenomena which are outstanding. One, all the friends
of the United States have been discredited, including Lech Walesa
in Poland, and, to a large degree, the Catholic Church,
too--because of its support of the United States in supporting
the so-called free trade or IMF conditionalities policies.
        And communists have come back to power, who are not really
Marxists any more. They now go to London, are sheepdipped,
probably by the Archbishop of Canterbury or something, and they
come back as fanatical free traders. You have this in Hungary,
you have this in Slovakia, you have this in Czechia, you have it
in Ukraine, though there's some resistance there, but
nonetheless, overall. All of these pro-Americans, particularly in
western Ukraine, were completely discredited by the role of
London and the United States in imposing this policy on Ukraine.
        In Russia, the Communist Party, again retooled. Not quite
the same as Poland, but it's coming back to power or toward
power, as a result of what the United States and Britain have
done. Hatred of the United States is building up throughout these
areas. The United States finds it difficult to build a policy.
The British are sneakily egging the Russians on to attack the
United States, and using the Serbia issue in the Balkans, as one
of the levers to do so.
        And the United States, stupidly, foolishly, with its bare
face hanging out, continues to push what's called ``freedom'' and
``democracy,'' which is codeword for dictatorship. Or, Russia is
an open society, but it's not a democracy. The policies are
dictated, but you can talk on the streets and things like that.
And we're supporting that in the name of democracy, in the name
of free trade, in the name of the so-called reform, and in the
name of IMF conditionalities.
        Then the Russians turn around and point to the United States
and say, ``Look! President Clinton is also supporting this.''
        The conditions of life in each of these countries is {vastly
worse} than it was at any time under communism during the
quarter-century or more, or thirty years or more, preceding the
fall of the Wall. And that's the result.
        We have turned the greatest opportunity for durable peace on
this planet into the greatest travesty, through tolerating, not
only tolerating Margaret Thatcher and George Bush and their
policies; but by the continuation of those same policies, despite
great reluctance by the Clinton administration
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excerpt from ``EIR Talks'', featuring weekly interviews with Lyndon
LaRouche,
worldwide on shortwave radio (WWCR, on frequency of 12.160 MHz.)
The LaRouche Home Page:
        http://www.clark.net/larouche/welcome.html

The Schiller Institute home page:
       http://inet.uni-c.dk/~sch-inst/

LaRouche will be on a paid broadcast on NBC Saturday, March 2, at 8:00 PM
Eastern and Pacific time, 7:00 PM Mountain and Central (plus Alaska,
Hawaii).
Check local listings to verify time.

In article >, Tony and Celia
Becker > writes:

>Sam, just what college do you teach graduate students at anyway?  You
have
>several times expressed the idea your own beliefs and pronouncements
ought
>to be accepted as fact because you "teach graduate students at a
college."
>
>
I don't teach graduate students and I've never stated that I did. You're
getting me confused with Eva Balogh. Happens all the time.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- You really can't expect to make these kinds of strange
pronouncements without having them questioned. And while I don't mind your
persistent personal attacks, I would suggest that you base them on
something I've actually written rather than making them up whole-cloth.

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

>That was a mistake I agree, but did not count to much. What were our
options?

Excellent reply overall, Mr. Zsargo, and I think you put your finger on
the central question. Hungary's options during the Second World War were
indeed crummy ones. But many Hungarians, including the ones who wound up
running the country throughout much of the war, took the more morally
compromising of the available options. Many others, of course, did not.

By the way, I ran across something recently that I'll toss out for your
comment. In Woodrow Wilson's Fourteen Points, Nos. X and XI state: "The
peoples of Austria-Hungary, whose place among the nations we wish to see
safe-guarded and assured, should be accorded the freest opportunity of
autonomous development." (No. 10) and "Rumania, Serbia and Montenegro
should be evacuated; occupied territories restored...and the relations of
the several Balkan states to one another determined by friendly counsel
along historically established lines of allegiance and nationality; and
international guarantees of the political and economic independence and
territorial integrity of the several Balkan states should be entered
into." (No. XI)

The official American interpretation of the Fourteen Points used by the
American negotiators at Versailles had this to say about No. X: "This
proposition no longer holds...The independence of Slovakia means the
dismemberment of the northwestern countries of Hungary...Transylvania --
Will undoubtedly join Roumania, but provision must be made for the
protection of the Magyars, Szeklers and Germans who constitute a large
majority. Hungary -- Now independent and very democratic in form, but
governed by Magyars whose aim is to prevent the detachment of territory of
nationalities on the fringe."

It obviously would have been much to Hungary's benefit, then and now, if
the American negotiators had stuck to the spirit and intent of the
Fourteen Points. By forfeiting in advance the principle of
self-determination for Hungarian communities in what wound up as Slovakian
or Romanian territory, they did much to create the problem which plagues
Hungary to this day. This was not one of my nation's finer moments nor was
it much of a victory for realpolitik over the more moralistic strain of
foreign policy implicit in the Fourteen Points.
Sam Stowe

At 05:37 PM 2/28/96 -0500, Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker wrote:

>Hungarians are such a tiny
>community already we'd be on the "endangered and forget it" list, if they
>had such a thing for humans, anyway.  We probably won't exist as an entity
>in another generation or so, so none of the concerns discussed in this
>group or the Hungarian Lobby matter.  Whatever isn't done by any real or
>unreal enemies will be done by our own and our good friends.  Right Sam,
>Joe, etc.?

And you want me to apologize for things I've written?  Now you're
insinuating that I'm an enemy of the Hungarian people.  In a previous post
you mention that you fought for everyones right to freedom of speech.  But
to be on good terms with you, it's best that we don't exercise it.  I'm
beginning to understand your approach.  I don't care for it, thank you.

Joe Szalai

Hi.

I'm a psychologist in England doing a piece of research on SAD, season
and latitude. I'm looking for some acecdotal reports (particulrly from
Alaskans) of how people cope with long winter nights and dramatic
changes in seasonal light levels. Do your activites change in the
winter/summer, for example? Do your eating habits change?
Alternatively, you could access the questionnaire at:
http://www.mcc.ac.uk/Psych/SPP

Thanks in advance, Erin E. Michalak

In article >,  (gardener)
writes...
>Can someone tell me how to get a visa to live and work in Canada? My
>girlfriend is in Hungary and she would like to come to Canada, but we don't
>know how to get a visa that would allow her to work here. Can anyone help us?
>
                                        Varga Istvan

Dear Istvan,

There are two ways to have your girlfriend near LEGALLY:

1) Make a vow of marriage at Immmigration Canada Offices (if the
relationship is serious and that's the final goal anyway).  With
that step you can start her SPONSORING then she can immigrate to
Canada legally - The whole procedure takes between 8 - 16 months.

2) Find her a job THAT NO CANADIAN CAN PERFORM (i.e., babysitting
at a Hungarian Family where parents want to teach Hungarian their
children) and she may request a work permit. If granted and given
a job as 'domestic helper' she is entitled to ask for residency !
after 2 years without your help (i.e., you do no need to sponsor
her in this case). PLEASE NOTE: No other jobs entitle her for the
residency status after 2 years, ONLY the DOMESTIC HELPER post.

This route may take 6 - 10 months as well.

You may also note, that for the 2nd case she needs proof of lang-
uage skills (French or English) and previous schooling and experi-
ence in child care.

A third alternative, to have her near as a turist (she needs no
visa for that), but SHE CANNOT WORK legally in this case.

I hope this helps,

Good Luck,

Attila

Dear George;

At 02:38 PM 3/1/96 +1000, you wrote:

>> it is all relative and a
>> matter of which poisons/hazards one can tolerate better.  My own preference
>> is for the "poison" of KisGepard's (I'm not even going to try to get behind
>> my husband's computer work in progress at the bookshelf for the souvenir
>> book that would enable me to check that spelling--every time I even look in
>> that direction at least 3 items tumble off something in between) triple
>> chocolate torte on a sunlit afternoon in Vorosmarty Square.  ;-)
>
>True, the Polish tradition in pastries and tortes is not quite like the
>Hungarian one.  I can recommend a full Polish breakfast, though, complete
>with various cold meats, cheeses, fish, pickles, rye bread, etc.  If it
>sounds too healthy, you can start on the Wodka Wyborova already with
>breakfast ;-).
>

Love it!  Now come out to California for a visit and let me introduce you to
my favorite winery-delicatessan and picnic grounds all in one.  You sound
like a gentleman with excellent taste!  Imagine a winery with a dozen
scrumptious gold medal winning wines (sold only at the winery) and a
delicatessen with more than 100 international cheeses, a dozen pates, smoked
salmon, salmon terrine, etc., a variety of sausages, mustards, pickles and
olives--and several types of bread.  The foreign cheeses are flown in
weekly, there's a good domestic cheese factory nearby (I took a friend both
to the factory and this winery all in one day recently)  Oh yes, they have
stuff stronger than wine also...  One catch, I have to eat plenty and drink
less if I'm driving--and I'm a slow eater thanks to the malfunctioning
adrenal glands.  However, it's not so bad if it's a beautiful day in the
northern wine country.  It's nice to linger over good food in pleasant
weather.  There's also a great East Central European restaurant about an
hour's or so drive away from this winery, in Healdsburg--best chicken
paprikas other than my late grandmother's, and an out-of-this-world borscht,
among other things. ;-))

  (I love having visitors that allow me to indulge in these places--can't
get my husband to visit them nearly enough to suit me--he keeps worrying
about his waistline and I haven't quite convinced him that he just needs
more walks in Muir Woods, after or before such indulgences, or a little more
time on the Nordic Track...  I strongly suspect that one of the reasons he's
not in a hurry to visit Budapest just yet, is that if I take him to both
Posta Kocsi and KisGerbeaud (I finally got to the souvenir book when I
ransacked the library and garage to respond to Sam)--or places like those,
in one day--he'll feel the need to walk the entire length of the Danube to
compensate... ;-)  )

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 



N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

An open letter to Dr. Odor.

It is with considerable interest that I read your messages re: New York
Roundtable. My premise is that all participants in this debate are
working for a free, democratic, tolerant and prosperous Hungary. A
country where there is a place for all who feel themselves to be
Hungarian or for those who wish to share in Hungarian values. A country
whose citizens are self-confident, willingly shoulder responsibility,
and who do not have a need to ascribe their problems and failures to
shadowy outsiders, real or imagined.

There are many ways to reach these goals. People of goodwill can, and
probably will, disagree on how these ends can be achieved. Under the great
tent there should be room for all to debate without questioning the
integrity or motives of those with whom one happens to disagree. Such
arguments are rarely constructive and even less enlightening.

In this country, we are used to arguing over issues, but unless there
is incontrovertible evidence, the rule of the game is that the alleged
motives or the character of an opponent is not dragged into the
discussion. Motivation is not the issue, the proposed solution is. Thus
I find it disconcerting when in this debate an attempt is made to shift
the focus to motives and alleged actions are attributed without a shred
of evidence of support. Thus, Dr. Odor, I believe that if you have
verifiable evidence to support your claims against the alleged
"wrongdoers" as you phrase it, state them and give us the benefit of
your knowledge. Calling a person a "---" does not make that person a
"---". If you feel so strongly, marshal your facts. People are
intelligent enough to draw the right conclusions. If you do not have the
facts or if you fail to reveal them, don't expect to be taken seriously.
Repeating scurrilous accusations will not lend credence to your point of
view.

If you have a better solution than the proposals with which you
disagree, come up with a better one. To solve the problems that Hungary
faces will require the best minds, both from the left and the right,
Catholics, Protestants, Jews, atheists or whatever god they happen to
believe in. The solution may come from people who trace their ancestry
to the original Hungarian tribes, Germans, Gypsies, Slavs, Jews or be
descendants of wherever their ancestors may have come to settle in
Hungary. All should be welcome. Racism should have no place in this
debate. One hopes that the discussions to come will be illuminating,
far-ranging and will engage all those who wish their homeland or land of
their ancestry the best.

Sincerely,

CSABA K ZOLTANI

Hali,

Csaba Zoltani wrote:
>The solution may come from people who trace their ancestry
> to the original Hungarian tribes

Hello?? How long ago did the Arpad Haz die off?? No one can claim true
"Hungarian" identity, which is what makes me laugh about the extremists in
Hungary, today. There hasn't been a pure "Hungarian", since the first Tatar
invasion. This was a pretty ludicrous statement.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

Dear Erin;

At 02:26 PM 3/1/96 GMT, you wrote:

>Hi.
>
>I'm a psychologist in England doing a piece of research on SAD, season
>and latitude. I'm looking for some acecdotal reports (particulrly from
>Alaskans) of how people cope with long winter nights and dramatic
>changes in seasonal light levels. Do your activites change in the
>winter/summer, for example? Do your eating habits change?
>Alternatively, you could access the questionnaire at:
>http://www.mcc.ac.uk/Psych/SPP
>
>Thanks in advance, Erin E. Michalak
>

My husband (4th generation Minnesotan) and I were both diagnosed with mild
SAD.  We were told there is a hereditary tendency, and talking with my
mother indicated she experienced it in Alaska when she lived there nearly 2
years just before I was born. (Technically my parents were officially
residents of Kodiak when I was born, but the medical facilities for
maternity weren't very good so the company sent my mother down to Southern
California to be near some of her relatives just before I was born.)

First, indoors, we typically have increased the wattage in the light bulbs,
and we went to full-spectrum as much as possible.  We made sure the ceilings
were as light as possible and sometimes slightly reflective.  Despite the
temperatures we do force ourselves to go out and spend some time looking
around in bright daylight--however short--at least a couple of times a week.
(Having to typically shovel snow--lots of it--nearly every week helped).  We
make sure that all the curtains, window shades, etc. are pulled back from
windows to allow as much light as possible to enter, during whatever daylight.

Yes, we do eat more heavily in winter--indoor as well as outdoor
temperatures are lower, and it requires more calories just to survive.  I
used to make more stews, rather than just soups in winter; more roasts with
heavier sauces, rather than the BBQ grilled chops of summer.  A lot more hot
beverages during the day, especially were consumed, some of course with
extra calories, some that stimulated digestion, some that were
spiked--especially after shoveling snow in less than 15 degree temperatures,
and especially if these were combined with wind--as in Minnesota, and Kodiak
they frequently were.  After 17 years of this, I ended up with a great
recipe for hot rum cider, for instance.

We also tended to increase the amount of vitamin tablets--especially C and
zinc, to compensate for fewer ripe vegetables and fruits being available,
and try to prevent viruses (not easy living in what the CDC once said was
"the flu capitol of the U.S.."  (There was an established relationship
between the level of airborne pesticides from improperly controlled and
managed farm soils carried around by the almost daily winds, and the number
of cases of flu and the severity.  This, along with a few other good
reasons, eventually caused the state to start insisting upon more and better
soil conservation measures, but it took them years to decide to do this.)

In general, the number and length of physical activities were greater, but I
honestly think the calorie consumption was not much different.  We did less
outdoors and indoors in the winter--but one needed more calories just to
keep  warm doing nothing.  We also made sure we got at least 7 hours of
sleep, however, at both times of year.  We'd just darken the sleeping rooms
as much as possible with a combination of shades and curtains, and closed
doors.--and if the birds, cats, etc. were still making a twilight
ruckus--soft ear plugs once in awhile were used.  It seemed to us most of
our neighbors pretty much lived as we did.  In Minnesota, since we had tree
clubs, neighborhood watch groups, and precinct caucuses, we could and did
frequently compare ideas and anecdotes.  My best "hot lemonade" recipe came
to me this way from a friend.

In our last neighborhood we seemed to be very well synchronized with one
another.  For example: every time it snowed, as soon as the first person,
anywhere on the block started either shoveling, or started up a snowblower,
within minutes--despite thickly insulated walls, solid wood and doubled
doors and curtained double--and even triple--glazed windows, somehow we all
heard or otherwise sensed that first person, and literally within minutes,
nearly every adult was out on the entire bloc removing snow.  It was really
bizarre to an outsider.  We often had every sidewalk, garage landing, and
the entire alleyway completely cleared before the city had gotten to the
first street on any side of a two block area.  We did the same thing with
debris clearance (and tree removal) when the tornado hit, also.  When we had
power outages, depending upon the season, a couple of people (not always the
same ones) would knock on all the doors and come up with a list of
supplies--like dry ice--and make either a snowmobile or automobile run to
the nearest unaffected store for the entire block.

(As an aside, we were of the good old-fashioned hand snow-shovel types--(a)
fewer parts to go bad and less pollution (b) what passed for sidewalks in
our front and back gardens would have mangled even the sturdiest of
snowblowers...)

My mother said they used to do things much the same way in Kodiak.  As an
example, of the higher level of cooperation, she described one winter in
which a couple of snowstorms held so much snow and window that several
houses literally had the entire lower floor--all doors and windows--blocked
with snow.  She said those who were not "stuck" literally dug tunnels and
canyons to doors, or in a couple of cases, packed the snow down, strung some
ladders across the top and down the side of the mound and enabled people to
climb out and re-enter their homes for awhile through the upper floor.  (She
had to do that once.)

Humor and music also seemed to be a part of "winter survival."  The now
internationally famous "Prairie Home Companion" radio show started--and
first rose to significance in Minnesota and the upper midwest.  Almost
everybody we knew also played some sort of instrument or sang and we had
impromptu jam sessions, jug bands and the like, winter and summer.  As a
lark one year, my husband and I even formed with a few other local
characters with names like Maggie Schultz, Jamie McPherson and Jim Graham,
the (and this was for real): "The 6th Ward, Re-elect Earl Netwal for
Alderman, Indiantown, Jug Band."  I played a real "string" bass--washtub
sound "box"" and doubled on cookie sheet or kazoo, and sang, Jamie did the
cider jug, Maggie and my husband guitar and vocal, and Jim either sang, did
Jew's harp, kazoo, triangle's washboard or whatever else we could improvise.
We had a real unusual version of "Tie me kangaroo, down," for instance.
(That one was hard on aluminum cookie sheets, however...)  It was great
practice for a little bit of truly inspired revenge upon "Northworst
Airlines" once, that we came up with to the tune of "Charlie and the
MTA"--our localized version (done by committee--lubricated by hot cider) was
"Ole and NWA..."  The radio stations--and many thousands of listeners loved
it, even if NWA didn't...


Hope some of this stuff helps your paper.  By the way, if you get the idea
that despite living among many real wonders and pleasures of California,
that I miss the "upper midwest," you're right.  I hope to combine something
of that with some of the best of California, though when we buy a piece of
property for a "real home" (as my husband puts it--townhouses don't
count--especially when they're almost right next to expressways...) at about
the 4,000 foot (3500 meter) level of the Sierras just a bit northeast of
Sacramento, in the next year or so.

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker

3273 B Rocky Water Lane
San Jose, CA, USA
tel.& fax:408-223-6102
e-mail: 





N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Jancsi;

At 04:21 PM 3/1/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Hali,
>
>Csaba Zoltani wrote:
>>The solution may come from people who trace their ancestry
>> to the original Hungarian tribes
>
>Hello?? How long ago did the Arpad Haz die off?? No one can claim true
>"Hungarian" identity, which is what makes me laugh about the extremists in
>Hungary, today. There hasn't been a pure "Hungarian", since the first Tatar
>invasion. This was a pretty ludicrous statement.
>
>Udv.,
>Czifra Jancsi
>john_czifra @ shi.com
>

You mean we only lost it that _late_?  Gee, I thought it went about the time
we intermarried with whatever was left of the Celts, Avars and Romans, if
not earlier... ;-)

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

I have compiled an E-Mail Directory of Lesbigay Scholars, with now more
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84 m2, 2-bedroom condo overlooking the Buda Hills in a beautiful,
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Dear Group;

About a year ago, a very interesting and detailed editorial series by Joanne
Jacobs (a senior editor) appeared in the "San Jose Mercury News."  It was
about the sad state of education--public mostly, but also private in some
instances--in California.  I met with Ms. Jacobs and talked with her a few
times since then.  She had mentioned a few months ago that an eye-opening
survey and study done by a national group about national and California
education would appear sometime this year.

I think what she was describing just appeared in today's paper, and it
applied to both public and private schools.  It was titled, "Students Lack
Texts, Survey Says," SJMN article about the survey written by Phuong Le.  To
summarize the article (a nice table on page 4B helped):

"Nationwide (and in California everything was from 60-100% worse): 15.7% of
all classes do not have enough textbooks for their students; 38.6% of all
students do not have textbooks to take home; 25.2% of all textbooks are more
than 10 years old; 4.1% of some textbooks are more than 20 years old; 41.6%
of teachers cannot assign homework because of too few books."

This is not a new situation.  I was shocked a few years ago to find my
nieces, nephews and children of friends in California were using exactly the
same high school history books I had used 20 years before, with little or no
revision.  Two books in particular, used in the mid-1960's were themselves
first published in 1960.  My husband and I encountered the same situation
among his relatives and our friends in Minnesota.  Indeed history seemed to
be the worst affected in this regard, far more so than the sciences or
mathematics.

Unfortunately, this situation is not limited to primary and secondary
education.  It also applies to universities and colleges--especially public
ones.  In the early 1970's, the Minnesota colleges and universities were
excellent. The U of MN was consistently ranked in the "top 10"--sharing the
lead with members of the "Ivy League" even in a number of fields.  They
didn't stay that way.  When in the mid 1980's we found that the University
had never remodelled its engineering buildings since my husband had last
been  in them--and they were already notable for floors so warped students'
desks would occasionally fall over if not positioned carefully, and some of
its test equipment was getting to the point it belonged in museums.

We also found that some of the social sciences had also taken a
beating--especially when some departments were targeted by one of Nixon's
lesser known "dirty tricks"--get the University donors who were also
Republicans (as many were) to quit donating either to the Universities he
believed either leading dissidents or large numbers had sprung from, or to
specific departments.  Many universities were hit by this, especially in the
history departments, between 1972-5.  It took awhile to rebuild funding
after this period.  In the course of my husband's business activities, and
my political activities we met with several persons who had been donors who
received messages from CREEP to do just this.

Since we were both politically active, we got together with a number of
people active in our district (and our previous home district) in about 1982
to do a quick survey of all the departments and all the metropolitan
colleges (and a couple of nearby other areas as well).  The biggest problems
were in engineering and the sciences, and history departments, but there was
a consistent pattern of decline.  Well, virtually all the directors and most
active people of two state senatorial districts began lobbying for more
funds--both state and private--to improve the universities and colleges
again.  We got brand new engineering buildings, new equipment--and the
Hubert  Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs, as a result.  However, that
was in 1982, and it is 14 year later, now.  I learned then it takes constant
vigilance and commitment to ensure consistent high quality education and
materials for students.  The vigilance and commitment are not consistent and
thus, things go in cycles.  A few years of elevation followed by many more
years of decline and complacency.

It is even worse in California.  Things have been in a steady decline since
the early 1970's.  There has been no major educational renovation/overhaul
project similar to what we helped muster in Minnesota.  This is also true of
many other states--including some on the much vaunted East Coast of the U.S..
Our many business, social and political connections have confirmed this.

Now let's look at the textbooks themselves.  Bear in mind that the majority
of both college as well as primary and secondary textbooks, are over 5 years
old (not in the survey published today, but mentioned last year), and over
25% (of pre-college, about 20% of college) are over 10 years old, and that
this is not a new situation but has been this way for at least 20 years (and
according to everyone I've ever asked--which does include quite a number--of
people of my parents generation was true for their generation as well).  Add
to this that the majority of older textbooks are in the liberal arts and
social sciences.  How old are the source materials then for the textbooks?

Well, ransacking a sizeable portion of that part of my library yesterday, and
doing a bit more similar "damage" today, some interesting patterns presented
themselves.  A decent, 500 pages or more textbook takes almost 2 years to
write, many even longer.  The newest materials--and also the fewest in the
textbook--are less than 5 years older than the publication date.  For the
"hard" sciences, the writers/editors/compilers are the best; the majority of
materials are less than 10 years old, and much of that portion under 7.  For
things like history--especially the "survey" courses?

That is a nightmare, even worse than I thought.  The median age of source
materials for the college textbooks in history turned out to be more than 20
years before the publishing date.  Many textbooks had been reprinted for
more than 10 years without any significant revision.  These books came from
one of the top universities in the U.S.--at a time when all the relevant
studies show U.S. education generally was at a higher level, and better
funded than it is now.  Very few textbooks relied upon more than a very few
"primary sources," in all the materials used to create the book.  The median
age range of the authors of these books was between 45 and 60--more toward
the older end of the spectrum.

Now add to this information the requirements for the social sciences for the
degrees most often held by business and governmental decision makers in the
U.S.--and their closest assistants in their work: Law, political science,
economics, business management.  In the mid-1970's and again in the late
1980's when I was considering graduate school and additional degrees, I did
a comparison of many colleges and universities catalogues in some of these
fields.  Since then, I have conducted verbal "surveys" among friends and and
acquaintances holding the other major degrees in this group.  Here's what is
required for social sciences education for these degrees in the U.S.:

2 courses in "American Institutions" and 4-8 courses of electives--any
choice, does not have to be history or anything in particular.  American
institutions is typically survey courses of American and state government.

That's it.  That is all that was required of over 90% of the decision and
policy makers anywhere, in any capacity, in the U.S. today.  This means that
most of them last got any education in non-U.S. history, culture or anything
else when they were in secondary school.  Considering this was last at least
15 years ago for even many political assistants, and more than 30 years ago
for most business executives, Congresspersons, high level officials at the
State and Defense Departments, that's rather startling.

Now consider this; if the last things these folks were learning about
anything outside of the U.S. was in _high school_ and the high school
textbooks were at least 5 years old in their printing date, and in the
social sciences typically more than 10 years old and had few "primary
sources" and the median age of the materials was more than 20 years old,
what does it say about the quality of education and information about people
that these U.S. decision-makers are using as background for their judgements
and decisions?

For the older decision-makers consider this, please: what was the U.S. like
before say, 1968?  What were the attitudes most likely to be of the parents,
teachers, churchmen-and-women, and textbook writers who would have all been
educating, brainwashing these decision makers for at least 21 years of their
lives, in a much more rigidly controlled society?

OK, this is the U.S..  Now what are the other "great powers" like?--France,
England, Russia, China, etc.?  How old are the decision-makers in these
nations?  What were their schools like?  How old were their textbooks--and
maybe, how old are they still?  What would they have been likely to learn
from their parents, teachers, churchmen-and-women (or political
ideologues)--and textbook writers?

Finally, what does this suggest about the quality of decision-making in many
areas, today, right now?

Respectfully and sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 







N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

At 11:57 AM 2/29/96, gardener wrote:
>Can anyone tell me how to get a visa to live and work in Canada? My girlfriend
>is in Hungary and she wants to come to Canada in the summer. We don't know hoe
>to get a visa so that she can work here. Please help.
>
>                                Varga Istvan

Visitors cannot work in Canada. Your friend, however, culd get an
invitation from a Canadian company to work here, and in that case, she may
apply for a work permit. The company will have to prove that they cannot
find Canadian applicant for the essential post.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

In article > Amos J. Danube
wrote:
>Subject:  HIRMONDO 7.024, 96/02/23
>
>Adam es Eva is roman volt (MH)
>
>Adam es Eva Romaniaban elt, tehat roman volt, es osi roman nyelvet
>beszelt - tobbek kozt ezt igyekszik bebizonyitani az a tizkotetes
munka,
>amely rovidesen kaphato lesz a romaniai uzletekben.
>
>A szerzok, Tudor Diaconu es dr.  Ilie Stanciu folfedezeseiket
teljesen
>tudomanyos alapon, szamitogepes matematikai modellezes utjan
tettek.
>Harmincesztendos kutatomunkajuk soran azt is kideritettek, hogy
Romania
>volt az egyetemes civilizacio bolcsoje, innen ered az egyiptomi,
indiai,
>babiloni, perzsa, kinai, gorog kultura, muveszet, tudomany,
filozofia
>orvostudomany, csillagaszat, teologia, kezmuvesseg, urbanizacio es
>allamisag.  Hasonlokeppen az Adam es Eva altal beszelt nyelv,
vagyis "az
>adami Romania allamnyelve" kepezi az alapjat a Biblia es az indiai
vedak
>nyelvenek, amelyet roman papok dolgoztak ki.  A szerzok
magyarazata
>szerint mindez arra vezetheto vissza, hogy Romania foldjen
evezredek ota
>titokzatos eroforras sugaroz ki jotekony energiat.


Muszaj rohognom.  A honap legjobb rohogtetoje.  Minden soratol
gurulni kell, es meg ok sirnak, hogy kigyot, bekat kiabalnak rajuk
a magyarok, holott sajat magukbol csinalnak pojacat.
JazzBanjo

> history and background, and wished to bury it.
I'm sorry to hear that. Will try to give an English summary if I can unearth
the book.

> Second, you are citing a Hungarian publication from a communist controlled
> era.
Indeed. But the fact that something was published in that era doesn't render
it useless, and the arguments made by the author (Komoro1czy is the best
Sumerologist in Hungary), which amount to pointing out basic methodological
flaws as well as a large number of elementary errors, had nothing to do with
communist ideology. The method of linguistic reconstruction that he is
appealing to has been developed long before communism came to Eastern Europe.

> >> >>"Thus we succeeded in proving that the Sumerian language did not die
> out but
> >> >>in fact, did survive in the scattered Hungarian language remains in the
> >> >>Latin Chronicles Literature of the 10-12th centuries A.D."
> >> >
> >> >No Hungarian document survived from these centuries. Hungarian language
> >> >remains of the following centuries are Hungarian language fregments and
 not
> >> >Sumerian. Their grammatical structure is Finno-Ugric and so is their
> >> >vocabulary.
> >>
> >> Sorry, but Dr. Badiny refers to several, the introduction to at least one
> >> set of German translations of the Matthias Corvinus chronicles also refer
 to
> >> some of the items going back to the first Arpad kings, ( I found this set
 at
> >> the U of MN rare books archives), and the church at Tihany shows tourists 
a
> >> piece of about 12th century literature.
> >Dr. Badiny has it wrong. The description of the situation given by Pe1ter
> >Hidas (namely that only fragments survive from the period, and these are
> >thoroughly Finno-Ugric, is quite correct, however much we might disagree
> >about the prehistory of the language. Note also that this period is
> >separated by millenia from the latest Sumerian material.
> >
> Yes the Hungarian documents are fragments, but the fragments do exist.  Also
> Badiny compared the root words often of the oldest known Hungarian with the
> Sumerian and listed a number of pages of the comparisons.
Sure, but the oldest known Hungarian is separated from the Sumerian by
thousands of years! Aside from the Halotti Besze1d which is conventionally
dated at 1192, the very end of the period (10th-12th century) under
discussion, all we have from Hungarian are sporadic words from a handful of
documents whose language is Latin or sometimes Greek.

To put the matter in perspective, we are talking about less than a couple of
hundred words here, and a significant portion of these are place names which
play very little role in tracing the genetic affiliation of languages for the
simple reason that place names tend to persist in the new language. You
wouldn't want to claim that English is genetically related to American Indian
languages just because the map is full of words like Dakota...

Halotti Besze1d, which is not only the first written Hungarian text also the
first written Finno-Ugric text, doubles the number of words, and more
importantly, adds significant information about the phonology, morphology, and
syntax of the early language.  Even if we extend the period under discussion
to the beginning of the 15th century, there are only a few more fragments, and
a few more coherent documents, such as the O1magyar Ma1ria-siralom (around
1300), the Gyulafehe1rva1r Lines, and the Ko2nigsberg Fragment. The Schla2gli
Wordlist (dated around 1405), with its 2,140 Hungarian words, has far more
etymologically relevant information than all the material from earlier periods
combined. So we begin to get on solid ground at the beginning of the 15th
century, but all the pre-16th century Hungarian material that survives
could still be printed in one rather slim volume!

Compare Beowulf to Chaucer and you will see the tremendous difference five-six
hundred years can make -- without the benefit of a written record it would be
hard to believe they are the same language at all.  Relating Sumerian and
Hungarian tries to bridge the gap not of half a millenium but several
millenia, and without the benefit of a written record. This is not a
scientific undertaking, much as building a very large pot for boiling water
will not get you to 424 Farenheit, you will just get more water at 212. The
methods of historical linguistics simply cannot bridge a time gap that big.

The study of Sumerian is quite a complicated matter in itself -- the earliest
written records are from a period when the language was no longer in active
use outside ritual situations, much like Latin in medeival Europe. Its study
is deeply intertwined with that of Akkadian, a Semitic language that died out
millenea ago without leaving descendants (other than Hungarian of course:-).
To believe that we can reach across the millenia (the latest surviving
Akkadian material is from around 13th century BC) and relate these to
Hungarian, is a pipe dream.

> >now dismissing, and have always dismissed, the Sumer-Magyar connection as
> >absolute nonsense.
> Can you post part of a 1990's proceedings of the Society of Sumerologists as
> to this?  I was told by professors at several U.S. universities that this is
> the most authoritative body.
I will make inquiries as to the most authoritative body, and will try to
summarize their opinion, if indeed they have a collective one.

> Also, how do you explain how so many esteemed
> anthropologists, then could continue to write things contradicting McNeish
> for 20 years, then finally start changing their writings?
I have no idea -- scientific theories change all the time. But methods change
far less often, physicists still use the ones pioneered by Bacon and Galileo,
and historical linguists still used the ones pioneered by Jones and Bopp. If
there'd been a methodological revolution that suddenly extends the powers of
linguistics by a factor of five I'd know about it.

> Again, after literally seeing what happened with the McNeish-Puleston, etc.
> research, I'll withhold my judgement at least another 20 years. I have some
> first hand memories of the tectonic plate discussions, also...  It's been my
> experience that career academics are just as human as the rest of us.
Yup, they are.

> As I told someone else, however, if my husband's blasted company ever goes
> public, I darned well intend to finance a really comprehensive study--by the
> "creme de la creme" of every darned discipline I can think of to try to
> expedite an end to this and few other related questions and claims.  I've
> done some modest funding of a few other things, so it's not a new habit, and
> I do find scientific procedure fascinating.  Even at the age of 12, I used
> to keep copious notes of my rocketry and mineralogy experiments--even
> measured the depth of the craters in my ceiling where the corks and test
> tubes periodically embedded themselves.  I'm not going to "buy proof of an
> opinion"  I darned well want the truth, but at least by going after it
> myself, whatever it turns out to be I can say I did pursue the truth.
>
> I may have to discard Badiny, et al in the future, but it is my right to
> hold the opinion that it may be premature to do so now, based upon my own
> experience of similar situations in both the anthropology and geology fields.
Hungarian linguistics is in tremendous need of support. If you are a
patron of the sciences I'd much rather direct your generosity towards
problems relevant today, ranging from spelling reform to more study of
Hungarian in the neighboring countries, to better dictionaries and machine
translation tools, etc. etc. than to something that is a rather idle object
of curiosity. Let's suppose Hungarian is related to Sumerian. What difference
does this make in the neighboring countries, where Hungarian is dying out,
in the classroom, where a better spelling could help staving off the danger of
illiteracy, in the technical fields, where the lack of productivity tools
for translators mean that more and more technical material is available
only in English, so that eventually higher learning will no longer be
accessible through Hungarian, etc. etc.? What difference would it make if
Hungarian turns out not to be related to Sumerian?

Andra1s Kornai