1. |
Re: USA: THE GREATEST, STRONGEST, MOST INFLUENTIAL NAT (mind) |
2 sor |
(cikkei) |
2. |
free books! (mind) |
21 sor |
(cikkei) |
3. |
Re: Hungarian Citizenship (mind) |
24 sor |
(cikkei) |
4. |
Re:MAgyar citizenship (mind) |
30 sor |
(cikkei) |
5. |
Help with translation... (mind) |
15 sor |
(cikkei) |
6. |
Re: Hungarian Citizenship (mind) |
11 sor |
(cikkei) |
7. |
Re: SCM reorganization, round two and a half / Re: Stil (mind) |
12 sor |
(cikkei) |
8. |
Re: USA: THE GREATEST, STRONGEST, MOST INFLUENTIAL NAT (mind) |
45 sor |
(cikkei) |
9. |
Re: Help with translation... (mind) |
24 sor |
(cikkei) |
10. |
Re: De minek lementeni ? (mind) |
29 sor |
(cikkei) |
11. |
Re: Andrei Arsenevich Tarkovsky (1932-1986) (mind) |
7 sor |
(cikkei) |
12. |
Places to stay in Budapest (mind) |
15 sor |
(cikkei) |
13. |
Re: USA: THE GREATEST, STRONGEST, MOST INFLUENTIAL NAT (mind) |
9 sor |
(cikkei) |
14. |
Re: De minek lementeni ? (mind) |
57 sor |
(cikkei) |
15. |
Re: Andrei Arsenevich Tarkovsky (mind) |
16 sor |
(cikkei) |
16. |
Re: De minek lementeni ? (mind) |
23 sor |
(cikkei) |
17. |
re. history of transylvania (mind) |
204 sor |
(cikkei) |
18. |
Re: De minek lementeni ? (mind) |
23 sor |
(cikkei) |
19. |
re. re. history of transylvania (mind) |
122 sor |
(cikkei) |
20. |
Re: Andrei Arsenevich Tarkovsky (1932-1986) (mind) |
12 sor |
(cikkei) |
21. |
Re: separate HIX group (was: Still Life (mind) |
12 sor |
(cikkei) |
22. |
tips on Hungary (mind) |
26 sor |
(cikkei) |
23. |
Re: Help with translation... (mind) |
21 sor |
(cikkei) |
24. |
Re: re. re. history of transylvania (mind) |
227 sor |
(cikkei) |
25. |
Re: Now we can declare a cease-fire (mind) |
17 sor |
(cikkei) |
|
+ - | Re: USA: THE GREATEST, STRONGEST, MOST INFLUENTIAL NAT (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
If Singapore is repressive, I wish they would make my whole country
(America) just like Singapore!
|
+ - | free books! (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
FREE BOOKS!
A small but rather good collection of Hungarian books (both in
Hungarian and in English, mostly older, some valuable, mostly in
quite good condition) is available for the asking.
We recently inherited this library from relatives but have no room
for it. We would like to find a nice home for them, preferably
a public home, like a college or public library, a Hungarian school,
a club, whatever.
Naturally, we would prefer a single home but are willing to send
them to different addresses.
If interested, please respond to this e-mail address:
Thank you!
Pass the word, tell your friends about it. Feel free to cross-post it to
other
groups.
(Beszelunk/irunk magyarul is.)
|
+ - | Re: Hungarian Citizenship (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
> writes:
>His father was born in Budapest, but he was born in a different country.
>Can he apply for Hungarian Citizenship?
Provided that your friend's father was born a Hungarian citizen (most likely he
was) your friend is already a Hungarian citizen, but not registered as such.
He should contact the nearest Hungarian Embassy or consulate and ask them to
send him forms
to either 1. get a citizenship certificate or 2. a Hungarian Passport (which
also doubles as a citizenship certificate).
Most likely he will have to submit original copies of his father's birth
certificate, marriage certificate as well as his own. If he cannot furnish
originals, he can give the dates, places, etc. and Hungarians, for a fee will
research and record them.
BTW> the US acknowledges dual citizenships, provided your friend dows not
insist on becoming a general in the Hungarian Army or get himself elected as
Prime Minister or such.
Vamossy Karcsi
|
+ - | Re:MAgyar citizenship (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
In > (Andras Nagy)
writes:
>
>Since it came up recently, I have a question too.
>I was born in Budapest I am now an US citizen.
>I never "rejected" my hungarian citizenship.
>What is my status ?? Dual citizen ? Do I need
>a visa and how long could I stay in BP or could
>I get a work visa ? Obviously I will never give
>up my US passport, just like to go back for a
>year or less. Any usable info will be appreciated.
>Cheers
>Andra's
Dear Andras,
Under Hungarian law, there is no such thing as rejecting your
citizenship. You can apply to be released from citizenship and if it
is granted, then you loose your citizenhip. In the alternative, your
citizenship can be taken away by a governmental act or court order. If
your citizenship was not taken away when you skipped Hungary, then you
are still Hungarian citizen.
You can re-claim your citizenship through the Hungarian embassy.
As a US citizen, you do not need a visa to visit Hungary.
Yours,
Gabor M.
|
+ - | Help with translation... (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
I am trying to compile a table of translations of the word "wolf" from
the many different languages. Any help with magyar and or any other
countries would be greatly appreciated.
Please e-mail to
Example
Language Translation Pronunciation
______________________________________________
Spanish lobo loh-boh
Thanks in advance!
Shane Holmes
Coordinator
ADK Wolf Project
|
+ - | Re: Hungarian Citizenship (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
In article >,
Charles Vamossy > wrote:
>
>BTW> the US acknowledges dual citizenships, provided your friend dows not
>insist on becoming a general in the Hungarian Army or get himself elected as
>Prime Minister or such.
Even that can be overlooked sometimes, as was the case with Panic, the
former premier of Serbia, also a US citizen.
Joe
|
+ - | Re: SCM reorganization, round two and a half / Re: Stil (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
In article >,
Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq > wrote:
>
>A jovoben a Usenet soc.culture.magyar csoport cikkeit (az ott is megjeleno
>HIX ujsagok kivetelevel) megtalaljatok a HIX SCM nevu ujsagjaban.
No csak, no csak! Meg a vegen azt is megerjuk, hogy a HIX supervisort
ert negativ kritikak is megjelenhetnek ilyen modon a HIXen. Vagy ezt is
felreertettem volna? (Hat azert annyira azert nem vagyunk nyitottak,
igaz?)
P. Jozsi
|
+ - | Re: USA: THE GREATEST, STRONGEST, MOST INFLUENTIAL NAT (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
In article >, (Thomas Jordan) wrote:
> Edwin David Latham ) wrote:
> : The .44 Magnum Doughnut wrote:
> : > > > Case in point, drug offenders are hung within one week after
> : > > > conviction in Singapore. No appeals. End result, there is no
> : > > > drug problem in Singapore. I suspect that murder convictions
> : > > > are dealt with in the same manner.
> : >
> : > > You just shot yourself in the foot, Doe Nut.
> : > >
> : > > If there's no drug problem, how can they be killing drug offenders?
> : > > If there are drug offenders, how effective is this deterrent?
> : >
> : > My statement re: Singapore clearly addresses the 'volume of incidence'
> : > issue. Naturally, it is not 100% effective. The stupidity of the human
> : > race knows no bounds. Case in point, people living in OddstrayliaHell(TM)
.
>
> : You said "there is no drug problem in Singapore". "No drug problem"
> : is not the same as "a reduced drug problem". Backing off?
>
> : How much other crime in Singapore (or Usa for that matter) is committed
> : by drug offenders trying to avoid the consequences at law?
>
> You're missing the point, Edwin. Singapore is one off the most oppressive
> regimes in asia. People get executed for all sorts of things there.
> Doughnut gets off on that.
>
>
>
> --
> T. P. Jordan,
> Research Assistant,
> Networks Research Group,
> De Montfort University
> Leicester
> Email:
> Tel: (0533) 551551 x8099.
> - Eric Cantona is innocent!
How can Cantona be innocent when it is clear to everyone on the t.v
evidence that he did commit a crime. There is no argument about that
KENNETH FISHER RIBA
|
+ - | Re: Help with translation... (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
In article > (Shane Holme
s) writes:
>From: (Shane Holmes)
>Subject: Help with translation...
>Date: 31 May 1995 05:22:06 GMT
>I am trying to compile a table of translations of the word "wolf" from
>the many different languages. Any help with magyar and or any other
>countries would be greatly appreciated.
>Please e-mail to
>Example
>Language Translation Pronunciation
>______________________________________________
>Spanish lobo loh-boh
Hungarian Farkás farkaasjh
Dutch Wolf Wolf
>Thanks in advance!
>Shane Holmes
>Coordinator
>ADK Wolf Project
|
+ - | Re: De minek lementeni ? (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
In article >,
T. Kocsis > wrote:
>
>A Usenet spontaneitása vész el ezzel, pont az a dolog,
>ami miatt szívesebben írok ide, mint a HIX-re; pont az,
>ami a Usenet báját, szubkultúra jellegét adja.
Igen, de vannak a HIXen egy paran, mint Zoli es P.G., akik ha valaki
elaztatasarol van szo, akkor az alvasukat is felaldozzak a regi
archivumok kutatasaert. Nagyon helyesen lattad, hogy az ilyen "smoking
gun" kent elohuzott regi szovegek altalaban hiteltelenek, mivel hianyzik
beloluk az a szovegkornyezet amiben eredetileg megjelentek.
>Az archivált újságszörnyszülött nem fogja tudni tükrözni
>azokat az emberi (baráti, haveri vagy akár ellenséges) kap-
>csolatokat, amik az állandó résztvevők között --soxor a hát-
>térben, emilen keresztül --kialakultak, és ami nélkül a le-
>mentett anyag torz, értelmezhetetlen, halott, kétes értékü
>információtömeg.
Hat ez aztan telitalalat volt! Eszembe juttatja azt a mar tobbszor
orrom ala dorgolt esetet, amikor en "allitolag" privat leveltitkot
arultam el az egyik prominens HIXezorol (hogy papaja MSZMP tag volt).
Pedig az eredeti kontextusban az nem olyan egyszeru ugy volt.
No de nem akarok belemenni a reszletekbe megint, mivel az illeto nevet
sem akarom ujra nagydobra verni. Aki annak idejen FORUMozott, tudja
mirol van szo, s a velemenyek rola ugyis a pa'rtok szerint oszlanak meg.
P. Jozsi
|
+ - | Re: Andrei Arsenevich Tarkovsky (1932-1986) (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
>
>1983 Nostalgia
> original screenplay
>
On the subject of Tarkovsky, does anyone know where I can get a copy of
Nostalgia? It is the only post-Steamroller film of Tarkovsky's I
haven't been able to locate. Thanks.
|
+ - | Places to stay in Budapest (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
My husband and I are planning on staying in Budapest from September 18 to Octob
er 9. We
don't want to stay in a hotel or bed and breakfast, but rather rent either a ro
om or a
flat. I understand that you can rent places from an organization (can't remembe
r the name)
If anyone can give me information about this organization or if they know of pl
aces
themselves, I would appreciate any help. Please email the price ranges and the
location.
Thanks in advance.
Diana
|
+ - | Re: USA: THE GREATEST, STRONGEST, MOST INFLUENTIAL NAT (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
In article > James Halliday,
writes:
> Yeah i think it's Singapore and in a few of the other Countries around which
> are considered "modern" you can be held without charge for an indefinite
> period of time.
Like Italy, for example...
Tamás
|
+ - | Re: De minek lementeni ? (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
Kedves Pannon Jozsi es Kocsis Tamas,
bar nekem is vannak problemaim a HIX-szel, hadd emlekeztesselek
benneteket a kovetkezo dolgokra :
1, Hollosi Jozsef, Fekete Zoli, e'n es egyaltalan aki akarja, archivalni tudja
a soc.culture.magyar irasait, ha lesz HIX csoport ha nem
2, A HIX, mint olyan, rengeteg embernek nyujt kapcsolatot, meg ha egy sokak
szamara tulsagosan nem megfelelo politikai kornyezetben is
3, Jelenleg egyikunk sem nyujt (vagy nem tud nyujtani) egy jol mukodo
alternativat, ami szerintem sokkal jobb megoldas lenne ellensegeskedes
helyett
Magyarul, az uzenetem az lenne, legalabb probaljunk meg pozitivan hozzaallni
ehhez a kerdeshez. Hogyan lehetne egy olyan forumot letrehozni, ami
fel tudna venni a versenyt - egy joindulatu versenyre gondolok - a HIX-szel,
vagy barmi mas hasonlo, egy kisebb csoport kore koncentralodo listaval ?
(Azt hiszem nem kell kihangsulyoznom, hogy a sajtoszabadsag szempontjabol,
ami manapsag Magyarorszagon ismet tamadasoknak van kiteve , a USENET, mint
vita
es informacios forum sokkal megfelelobb mint egy nehany ember altal menedzselt
lista ) .
Nekunk is, itt a USENET-en, erdeklodesi csoportok szerint szerint kellene
strukturalni a magyar ujsagokat. Ez az amivel szerintem sokan egyetertenek.
A HIX olvasoi, a USENET-re iro'k es a konformizmusra torekvo szamitogepes
buzgomocsingok.
Az altalam javasolt felosztas a kovetkezo lenne, (legyetek szivesek
kiegesziteni, megvaltoztatni, stb. ), peldaul :
soc.culture.magyar kultura, tarsadalom
soc.genealogy.hungarian csaladfa, szarmazas kutatas
soc.couples.hungarian tarskereso szolgalat
talk.politics.hungarian vad politika
rec.humor.hungarian/magyar viccek, humor, szatira stb.
...
Mindezen csoportok moderalas nelkul dolgoznanak, ketiranyu elektronikus posta
- USENET kapukkal, hogy barki szamara elerhetoek legyenek.
Mas, a HIX jelenleg sok olyan informaciot kozvetit, ami kozvetlenul kuldheto
lenne a kapun keresztul a soc.culture.magyar
vagy mas magyar csoportokba . A kovetkezo ujsagoknak nem feltetlenul kellene a
HIX-en keresztul eljutni a soc.culture.magyarra. Kerdes az, mi fontosabb nekik,
a HIX-szel valo egybefonodas vagy egy szeles, zabolatlan reteg elerese.
MOZAIK - ,
HUNGARY - bit.listserv.hungary
HIRMONDO - ?
NARANCS -
Minden jot es varom valaszaitokat,
Gotthard
--
personal email, mailto:
Hungarian-American list, mailto:
WWW, http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard
|
+ - | Re: Andrei Arsenevich Tarkovsky (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
Sergey Malov ) wrote:
> The whole list is:
> * The Childhood of Ivan (Ivanovo detstvo); based on some novel, but
> I can't say it for sure;
Bogomolov "Ivan"
> * Andrej Rublev;
> * Solaris; based on Stanislav Lem novel with the same name;
> * The Mirror; autobiografic movie;
> * Stalker - 1979; science-fiction novel of A. and B.Strugackij put in a
> basis, but the plot is very different;
> * Nostalgia - 1982;
> * Sacrifice - 1985;
> Best regards,
> Sergey
|
+ - | Re: De minek lementeni ? (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
In article > Gotthard Saghi-Szabo
d.edu> writes:
>soc.culture.magyar kultura, tarsadalom
>soc.genealogy.hungarian csaladfa, szarmazas kutatas
>soc.couples.hungarian tarskereso szolgalat
>talk.politics.hungarian vad politika
>rec.humor.hungarian/magyar viccek, humor, szatira stb.
[...]
>Minden jot es varom valaszaitokat,
Standard news.groups valasz:
"1.annyi a forgalom soc.culture.magyar -on, hogy kellene tobb csoport kozott
osztani? sokak szerint ez csak akkor javasolt, ha tobb mint napi 100 cikk
van
2.ez mind szep es jo hogy magyar, de akkor ne bosszantsanak minket a fo
(ertsd elsosorban USA-bol olvasott es irott) Usenet-en, erre valok a
nemzeti hierachiak, kulonben is hallottam egy uj hun.* -rol"
Tehat gyakorlatilag keves az eselyed hogy egyik is jojjon letre.
De lehet probalkozni, talan tevedek.
Szemely szerint nekem tetszik a politics, esetleg a genealogy ha van ra igeny.
-- Olivier
|
+ - | re. history of transylvania (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Liviu Iordache > wrote:
>
wrote:
>
>>second, the anonymous chronicler of king bela (I or II?) mentions
>>latin-speaking folksin transylvania at the arrival of king istvan I
>>there. also, the russian chronicler Nestor, the persian chronicler
>>Gardisi, which i mentioned in more detail in previous posts. in
>>addition, the byzantine chroniclers Cinnamus and Nicetos Choniates
>>mention the presence of latin-speaking people in prresent-day
>>romania between the Xth and the XIIth centuries.
>
>There are several incorrect and/or incomplete statements here:
>
>1. It is not known if Anonymus was the cancellor of King Bella III
>who died in 1196, or King Bella II who died in 1146.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
you're right - thanks for the correction (i had only troubles with all
those bellas - too many of them :-) maybe i'll be lucky again and
find some in budapest this summer :-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>2. Nestor wrote at the beginning of the 12th century and his
>reference to the Vlachs is geographically vague. Moreover, he
>suggests a northward movement of his Vlachs and clearly states that
>before the maghyar arrival the "country" (Transylvania !?) was
>initially inhabited by Slavs from whom the Vlachs had seized the
>power.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ok, here is the english translation of the original text (Laurentian
Text, p.62 - thanks Tamas :-):
"(date 888-898) The Magyars passed by Kiev over the hill now called
Hungarian, and on arriving at the Dnieper, they pitched camp. They
were nomads like the Polovcians. Coming out of the east, they
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
struggled across the great mountains, and began to fight against the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
neighbouring Vlakhs and Slavs. For the Slavs had settled there first,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
but the Vlakhs had seized the territory of the Slavs. The Magyars
^^^^^^^^^^^
subsequently expelled the Vlakhs, took their land, and settled among
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the Slavs, whom they reduced submission. From that time this
territory was called Hungarian."
now i'll make a few comments:
1. i do not think the geographical reference given by Nestor is that
vague. we know where the magyars came from originally, we know their
route, and we know their destination. the only mountaneous chain in
their path west of the Dnieper is obviously the Carpathians.
2. nowhere in the text Nestor SUGGESTS a northward movement of the
Vlakhs. he merely states that the Vlakhs seized territory where Slavs
lived across those mountains. the northward movement deduction is
like data extrapolation for an unknown equation - it simply is a "shot
in the dark".
also, there are 2 geographical possibilities for where the land of the
Slavs laid according to Nestor - either in present-day transylvania
or, across the Apuseni mountains in the pannonian plain. if it was in
the pannonian plain, then Nestor points out to latinized folks
inhabiting that region BEFORE the magyars. if it was in transylvania,
Nestor could merely refer to a land there where, indeed, Slavs settled
first, and Vlakhs took it over from them. this does not contradict
the theory that latin-speaking folks did not inhabit in transylvania
prior to the slavs, but only that portion of transylvania was occupied
by the slavs FIRST.
anyway, the main point is that 2 independent chronicles at the time,
namely the Anonymous chancellor of King Bela III AND The Nestor's
chronicle mention the presence of latin-speaking people in the inner
Carpathian basin (ie. Transylvania) BEFORE THE MAGYAR ARRIVAL THERE.
This is the main point of convergence in both chronicles.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>3. Gardisi lived in the 11th century. He refers to a people called
>N-n-dr. The location is again vague. Nor can we be certain that the
>N-n-dr of Gardisi were necessarily Latin speakers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i agree with most of what you state. for more clarity, Gardisi
referred in his chronicle to a christian people called RUM ("az Rum"),
stating that they were more numerous than the magyars, but weaker.
geographically, he placed their territory by a large river and towards
the land of the slavs.
well, here i agree with you that the geographical reference by Gardisi
is vague. however, we can still deduce that he referred to
latin-speakers by mentioning them as RUM, and by placing them next to
the magyars and by a large river (assuming the Danube). were there
other latin speakers in close neighborhood to the magyars and living
by a large river then (other than the Vlachs)?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>4. Cinnamus was the secretary of Manuel Comnenus. In 1167 he
>mentions Vlachs in an army which Leo Vatatzes was leading across the
>Danube. These Vlachs were collected south of the Danube. It is just
>speculated that they were possibly romanians.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cinnamus mentions that, during the preparation for an attack on the
Hungarians, the byzantine emperor:
"[he] ordered Leo by surname Batatzes, who led a force from abroad,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
among many other sorts a large group of Vlachs, who are said to be
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
former colonists from the people of Italy..." (John Kinnamos, Deeds of
John and Manuel Comnenus, Columbia University Press, p.195).
as a comment to the above text, Cinnamus clearly mentions that the
force led by Batatzes, and which included Vlachs, was FROM ABROAD
(meaning from outside the byzantine empire). so he does not
specifically state that they were collected south of the danube. and
by mentioning "from abroad", we can, again, make a deduction that they
were possibly collected north of the danube.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>5. Choniates mentions that in 1164 Andronicus Comnenus, leaving
>Mesembria for the North, fell in the hands of some Vlachs. These may
>be Vlachs in Romania or Vlachs in Bulgaria.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree here. Choniates mentions that the byzantine emperor
Andronikos fell in the hands of Vlachs when reaching "the borders of
Galitza." it seems to be a controversy of where Galitza was located
geographically. some sustain that it refers to the province of
Galitzia north of present-day Moldova, and others maintain that it
refers to a region in the Morava Valley (south of the Danube). if
time permits, i'll investigate this further.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Your conclusion that the 4th and 5th references prove the presence of
>latin-speaking peopple in present-day Romania between 10th and 12th
>centuries represents an overstatement.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i don't believe i stated that based SOLELY upon the chronicles of
Cinnamus and Nicetas Choniates we can conclude that romanians
inhabited their present area of residence.
i am, however, stating that ALL ABOVE SOURCES TAKEN TOGETHER give an
indication of the presence of latin-speaking folks in romania PRIOR or
AT THE ARRIVAL OF THE MAGYARS in the region. as jeliko also
mentioned, and i agree, the most important thing is to look at the
convergence tendencies in the available information, rather than at
the divergencies. and the convergence-in-information rules show us
vlach presence in present-day romania from the 10th to the 12th
centuries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Keep in mind that the Byzantine sources had no problem in recording
>the presence of Vlachs south of the lower Danube. The "silence of
>the historians" is very selective because the only Vlachs they failed
>to mention prior to the 11th century are the North-danubian Vlachs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well, the byzantines first ever mention of vlachs was in the Xth
century, if i'm not mistaken and yes, they mentioned the vlachs living
south of the Danube.
given this fact, 2 points can be made:
1. although vlachs lived in the balkan peninsula (ie. south of the
danube) for centuries, they were mentioned as late as the 10th century
for the first time. shall we then conclude that they did not exist
there PRIOR to then? of course, not. which brings me to the next
point.
2. the byzantine chroniclers, being the official scribes of their
kings and emperors, usually documented events that had a direct
bearing upon the empire, events of mainly military nature, of
conquests or of defeats that affected the state directly. in this
process, they also documented the ethnicity of the folks with which
their state came into such a contact.
for instance, there were numerous references to the avars in byzantine
and western chronicles since they obviously were a redoubtable enemy
and neighbour for centuries. however, after the middle of the VII-th
century, when their power greatly diminished and were not a political
and military factor of importance to the byzantines, they became
virtually ignored in the chronicles. the same pattern also follows
other invaders of the carpatho-danubian basin in the waning days of
their power. but the fact that the chroniclers did not mention those
people after they ceaseed to be a threat does not imply that they
ceased to exist.
and in the same vein, the vlachs started to be mentioned quite heavily
in the byzantine chronicles in conjunction with the rise in power of
the 2 vlach brothers, John and Asan, which led a vlach-bulgar
rebellion that threatened the empire.
the latin-speaking population in transylvania was not a threat of any
kind to the byzantines. they lived quite isolated from them by the
carpathian and transylvanian alps. they were of no or negligible
importance to them.
-cristian
|
+ - | Re: De minek lementeni ? (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
On 31 May 1995, CLARY Olivier wrote:
> Tehat gyakorlatilag keves az eselyed hogy egyik is jojjon letre.
> De lehet probalkozni, talan tevedek.
>
> Szemely szerint nekem tetszik a politics, esetleg a genealogy ha van ra igeny
.
Olivier,
meg ha keves is az esely, meg lehet probalni, ha a tobbseg itt az
s.c.m-en ugy gondolja. Vegul is, lattad, ha az egesz magyar
olvasokozonseg tamogatna az otletet, konnyen keresztulviheto
lenne a szavazas . Egyebkent ezek csak nagyon kezdeti javaslatok,
es a celja hozzaszolasok, kritikak gyujtese - mint peldaul a tied.
Koszonom a valaszt, most mar tudom, hogy legalabb kettonknek tetszik a
talk.politics.hungarian letrehozasa :)
Minden jot,
Gotthard
--
personal email, mailto:
Hungarian-American list, mailto:
WWW, http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard
|
+ - | re. re. history of transylvania (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>T. Kocsis > wrote:
>
writes:
>>
>>second, the anonymous chronicler of king bela (I or II?) mentions
>>latin-speaking folks in transylvania at the arrival of king istvan I
>>there. also, the russian chronicler Nestor,
>
>Nestor mentioned "Vlakhs" two times in his chronicle.
>Russian Primary Chronicle [Laurentian Text]:
>p.62
>"(date 888-898) The Maygars passed by Kiev over the hill now
>called Hungarian, and on arriving at the Dnieper, they pitched camp.
>They were nomads like the Polovcians. Coming out of the east, they
>struggled across the great mountains, and began to fight against the
>neighbouring Vlakhs and Slavs. For the Slavs had settled there first,
>but the Vlakhs had seized the territory of the Slavs. The Magyars
>subsequently expelled the Vlakhs, took their land, and settled among
>the Slavs, whom they reduced submission. From that time this
>territory was called Hungarian." > /*---*/
>
>The second one is more complicated however. First you must
>know that in early Slavs Vlakhi, Vlasi were used for the Italians.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
well, not italians but latin-speaking people. south slavs called them
"vlachs", but eastern slavs called them "volochs". the fact that
various chroniclers mention "vlachs/volochs" in the balkans and within
the carpatho-danubian basin leaves little doubt that they were
speaking of the ancestors of the present-day romanians.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>From the text it is clear that the Slavs came earlier than Vlakhs.
>Then the Vlakhs were *expelled* by the Hungarians.
>
>Explanation: The region was then subjugated by the Frank Empire, and
>Nestor refers to them as Vlakhs. That time their language
>was quite near to Latin....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
interesting explanation, tamas, but i'm afraid i'm not going to buy it
;-)
well, i agree, Nestor mentions that the Slavs came in the land beyond
the Carpathians first, and the Vlachs came after and subjugated them.
there are 2 geographical possibilities for where the land of the Slavs
laid according to Nestor - either in present-day transylvania or,
across the Apuseni mountains in the pannonian plain. if it was in the
pannonian plain, then Nestor points out to latinized folks inhabiting
that region BEFORE the magyars. if it was in transylvania, Nestor
could merely refer to a land there where, indeed, Slavs settled first,
and Vlakhs took it over from them. this does not contradict the
theory that latin-speaking folks did not inhabit in transylvania prior
to the slavs, but only that portion of transylvania was occupied by
the slavs FIRST.
anyway, the main point is that 2 independent chronicles at the time,
namely the Anonymous chancellor of King Bela III AND The Nestor's
chronicle mention the presence of latin-speaking people in the inner
Carpathian basin (ie. Transylvania) BEFORE THE MAGYAR ARRIVAL THERE.
This is the main point of convergence in both chronicles.
also, i don't think transylvania was ever under the frank rule - i'll
check (or you do it) how far the boundaries of the frank empire
stretched back then. the assertion that Nestor referred to franks
when mentioning the vlachs is quite weak and un-substantiated, in my
opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Actually the text is prettily against your theory. Those Vlakhs are
>either Daco-romanians then the theory of continuity does not stand
>because they came later than the Slavs and were expelled anyway very
>soon.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
the chronicles mentioned by me in the previous post, namely
Anonymous', Nestors', plus Gardisi's, Cinnamus', and Choniates' are a
very strong indication that latin-speaking folks (ie. vlachs)
inhabited the carpatho-danubian basin BEFORE THE MAGYAR ARRIVAL.
i never assserted that these chronicles are ENOUGH to prove daco-roman
continuity. In order to formulate a daco-roman continuity theory
(along with the mix between daco-romans and slavs, thus giving birth
to the romanian nation in the carpatho-danubian basin), the following
points must be made:
1. that the romans did not exterminate the dacian autochtonous
population after their conquest of Dacia. in previous posts, i showed
why this scenario is likely.
2. that the roman domination of Dacia Traiana was enough to latinize
the dacian population, and to create a new latinic people from the mix
of the dacians with the roman colonists. check previous posts again.
3. that the roman administration withdrawal from Dacia Traiana did
not cause a full abandonment of that territory. check previous posts
again.
4. that archeological finds sustain the continuity theory.
5. that a mix of latinized folks with slavs in the carpatho-danubian
was likely. see previous posts.
6. that these folks inhabited that region before the magyars arrived
there. see above and previous posts.
7. that linguistic and toponymic factors support this theory. see
previous posts.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>or they are not Daco-romanians: then the Nestor chronicle does not
>say one word of Daco-romanians moreover excludes them from the
>region which belonged to Slavs before Franks and Hungarians.
>Tamas
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nestor referred to latin-speaking folks in the area. these folks were
the ancestors of present-day romanians. he did not differentiate
between daco-romanians and vlachs.
-cristian
|
+ - | Re: Andrei Arsenevich Tarkovsky (1932-1986) (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
Ronald Fritts ) wrote:
: >
: >1983 Nostalgia
: > original screenplay
: >
: On the subject of Tarkovsky, does anyone know where I can get a copy of
: Nostalgia? It is the only post-Steamroller film of Tarkovsky's I
: haven't been able to locate. Thanks.
Ronald -- where have you found all the rest of them???
Susan
|
+ - | Re: separate HIX group (was: Still Life (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
> How about creating one group under s.c.m and gatewaying the hu.* groups
> into that subgroup? It would be a bit cacophonic since all hu groups
> would end up in a single one, but it would definitely be better than
> nothing.
Jozsi mentioned that he's considering a HIX list gatewaying hun.*, and I
guess that could go under s.c.m.hix (although some of hun.*, such as
local sales and other domestic-only stuff would be rather misplaced in
the worldwide hierarchy, IMHO).
Zoli (note my old full address @bcuxs2 is retired)
"For my assured failures and derelictions, I ask pardon beforehand of my
betters and my equals in my calling." - Rudyard Kipling
|
+ - | tips on Hungary (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
hellooo hellooo folks,
after all those sweaty debates and various verbal wrestling matches,
it's finally time to relaaaaaax in......you guess it......Budapest, of
all places.
so, is anyone outthere from this maaaahhhhhhvelous citadel that can
give me some tips on a variety of relaxing activities and situations
(thanks to gabor_the_aztec_love_god for his tips)......oh, and also
the surroundings but, pleeeeeaase, not as far as the sea of Balaton
because time will not permit, and i cannot surf, anyway....
so stuff like cute little side streets, neighborhood hangouts, bars,
cafes, international bookstores, museums, art galleries, parks,
restaurants, czardas hangouts (maybe outside the city), baths (gellert
and....), etc.etc.
much obliged to y'all for any gracious and candid suggestions.
-cristian
ps: i know i'll be sadly missed by y'all, but a man gotta do what a
man gotta do.....(sorry for the cliche ;-)
pps: and jeliko, take it easy man, and don't worry, i'll be back in
mid-july.....hasta la huego, amigo!
|
+ - | Re: Help with translation... (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
Frans_Szabo ) wrote:
: In article > (Shane Hol
mes) writes:
: >From: (Shane Holmes)
: >Subject: Help with translation...
: >Date: 31 May 1995 05:22:06 GMT
: >I am trying to compile a table of translations of the word "wolf" from
: >the many different languages. Any help with magyar and or any other
: >countries would be greatly appreciated.
: >Please e-mail to
: >Example
: >Language Translation Pronunciation
: >______________________________________________
: >Spanish lobo loh-boh
: Hungarian Farkás farkaasjh
^
it is farkas and farkash
|
+ - | Re: re. re. history of transylvania (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
Cristian writes:
>The second one is more complicated however. First you must
> >know that in early Slavs Vlakhi, Vlasi were used for the Italians.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> well, not italians but latin-speaking people. south slavs called
them
> "vlachs", but eastern slavs called them "volochs". the fact that
> various chroniclers mention "vlachs/volochs" in the balkans and
within
> the carpatho-danubian basin leaves little doubt that they were
> speaking of the ancestors of the present-day romanians.
>
Well not exactly, the Hungarians even today call the Italians Olasz from
Vlasi, the vl change came into being the same way as Olah from Vlah.
The word itself is an interesting derivation and apparently it was used to
designate people who spoke another language. The word was first used for
the Celts in the form of Volcus. It is not clear whether the Goths or the
Slavs started to use it for Latin speakers but it is the word used for
Wallonia (French speakers by Germanic speakers) Galatians (Celtic speakers
by Greeks) Welsh (Celtic speakers by Romans) and as Vlach or Wallach in the
Greek and Gothic documents. The Hungarian use by Anonymus was
Blacus,Blachii,Blasii and Blacorum, apparently he just could not make up
his mind or possibly he tried to differentiate, who knows. Anyway in his
time there were Vlachs in Transylvania, what he knew about who were there
several hundred years before is another question.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >From the text it is clear that the Slavs came earlier than Vlakhs.
> >Then the Vlakhs were *expelled* by the Hungarians.
> >
> >Explanation: The region was then subjugated by the Frank Empire,
and
> >Nestor refers to them as Vlakhs. That time their language
> >was quite near to Latin....
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> interesting explanation, tamas, but i'm afraid i'm not going to buy
it
> ;-)
>
> well, i agree, Nestor mentions that the Slavs came in the land
beyond
> the Carpathians first, and the Vlachs came after and subjugated
them.
> there are 2 geographical possibilities for where the land of the
Slavs
> laid according to Nestor - either in present-day transylvania or,
> across the Apuseni mountains in the pannonian plain. if it was in
the
> pannonian plain, then Nestor points out to latinized folks
inhabiting
> that region BEFORE the magyars. if it was in transylvania, Nestor
> could merely refer to a land there where, indeed, Slavs settled
first,
> and Vlakhs took it over from them. this does not contradict the
> theory that latin-speaking folks did not inhabit in transylvania
prior
> to the slavs, but only that portion of transylvania was occupied by
> the slavs FIRST.
>
Well not exactly again, the Tales of Bygone Days (it is not clear what and
how much Nestor wrote) should be read in whole and not only segments. The
translations do not help at times either, in the original, the Tales
describes who lived where and the Vlachs are placed in Western Europe near
the see with the British Isle, unfortunately some translators corrected
the name to the names of the folks as used today in the preamble, which
fuels the oft claimed mistake. So it is obvious that the Tales are talking
about the Franks and not somebody else. The nearest area to the Pannonian
basin was the East Frankish empire so the Tales are describing the Frankish
incursion into the pannonian basin and the subjugation and partial
expulsion of the Slavs who lived there with the Avars. The relevant wars
are well described by the contemporary chroniclers.
The reference of the area although more Western Hungary, i.e. Pannonia was
referred to as the Pastures of the Romans long before eve the Roman Dacian
wars by several chroniclers, although later it was called the wasteland of
the Avars also. Chroniclers were doing a lot of copying those days also.
> anyway, the main point is that 2 independent chronicles at the time,
> namely the Anonymous chancellor of King Bela III AND The Nestor's
> chronicle mention the presence of latin-speaking people in the inner
> Carpathian basin (ie. Transylvania) BEFORE THE MAGYAR ARRIVAL THERE.
They are not independent chroiclers, Anonymus, if as considered was King
Bela's notary, was very well aware of what was written by Russian (Kievian)
writers because of the close relationship between the Bela's (whether he
was Bela III's or one of the other Bela's notary) realm and the Kievian
area, Halich (Galicia) and several princedoms had multiple marriages with
the Hungarian ruling house, if anything the eastern relationship was the
best in those days.
As a matter of fact Anonymus was aware of the other Russian chronicles also
because he merged several of them in his description of the folks percieved
by him to be present in the area. You should also read Anonymus in full
because he mentions Vlachs(?) only in a particular area where there are
records of Romanian settlements only much later. Other chroniclers are very
specific about Slavs (Timocani) and Bulgarians in the TS area.
I have additional ideas why Anonymus wrote what he wrote but that has to
wait for some other time.
> This is the main point of convergence in both chronicles.
>
> also, i don't think transylvania was ever under the frank rule -
No it was not. The Franks were in western Hungary basically what was
Pannonia. TS was under the Bulgars as shown by the correspondance between
the Franks and the Bugars about not shipping salt to the Moravians who were
at war with the Franks, (there were no other salt supply areas in the
region!) Eventually there was warfare between the Bulgars and the Franks
also.
>i'll
> check (or you do it) how far the boundaries of the frank empire
> stretched back then. the assertion that Nestor referred to franks
> when mentioning the vlachs is quite weak and un-substantiated, in my
> opinion.
Not if you read the whole of the Tales and check the original.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >Actually the text is prettily against your theory. Those Vlakhs are
> >either Daco-romanians then the theory of continuity does not stand
> >because they came later than the Slavs and were expelled anyway
very
> >soon.....
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> the chronicles mentioned by me in the previous post, namely
> Anonymous', Nestors', plus Gardisi's, Cinnamus', and Choniates' are
a
> very strong indication that latin-speaking folks (ie. vlachs)
> inhabited the carpatho-danubian basin BEFORE THE MAGYAR ARRIVAL.
I think we put Nestor out of the way. I'll discuss Anonymus in more detail
later and we will take the others one at the time.
>
> i never assserted that these chronicles are ENOUGH to prove
daco-roman
> continuity. In order to formulate a daco-roman continuity theory
> (along with the mix between daco-romans and slavs, thus giving birth
> to the romanian nation in the carpatho-danubian basin), the
following
> points must be made:
>
> 1. that the romans did not exterminate the dacian autochtonous
> population after their conquest of Dacia. in previous posts, i
showed
> why this scenario is likely.
The Roman chronicles do not show much mercy toward the Dacians and a large
part of the incoming legions and even settlers were not native Latin
speakers.
I have no problem with your theory that the Vlachs were mixed with Slavs at
some time, the Serbian, Bulgarian chronicles and even the crusaders
chronicles (Villeharduin) describe it well
Howvever there is no proof or strong indication that the cooperation
occured in TS.
>
> 2. that the roman domination of Dacia Traiana was enough to
latinize
> the dacian population, and to create a new latinic people from the
mix
> of the dacians with the roman colonists. check previous posts
again.
>
Same here, if needed I can repeat all the contraindications for the Roman
times.
> 3. that the roman administration withdrawal from Dacia Traiana did
> not cause a full abandonment of that territory. check previous
posts
> again.
>
You are probably right here, however the most likely to leave were the ones
who were Romanized, the shepherds in the mountains were the least likely to
succomb to Romanizing influence in the cities. Even later the Romanian
population was very meager in the cities.
> 4. that archeological finds sustain the continuity theory.
>
I strongly disagree with this interpretation of the archeological findings,
there are some (but very few) finds which indicate that funeral methods
similar to the Dacians occured after the Roman withdrawal, but those
findings indicate a very primitive life style and not by themselves prove
latinized dacian continuity.
> 5. that a mix of latinized folks with slavs in the
carpatho-danubian
> was likely. see previous posts.
>
No disagreement here except we both use different time frames.
> 6. that these folks inhabited that region before the magyars
arrived
> there. see above and previous posts.
>
Well as far as the Slavs are concerned there is no doubt, just read the
chronicles, archeology, toponyms, etc.,
> 7. that linguistic and toponymic factors support this theory. see
> previous posts.
Same here for the counterarguments.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >or they are not Daco-romanians: then the Nestor chronicle does not
> >say one word of Daco-romanians moreover excludes them from the
> >region which belonged to Slavs before Franks and Hungarians.
> >Tamas
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Nestor referred to latin-speaking folks in the area. these folks
were
> the ancestors of present-day romanians. he did not differentiate
> between daco-romanians and vlachs.
>
As the full text of the tales indicate you are not correct.
> -cristian
We'll continue when you get back.
Regards,Jeliko.
|
+ - | Re: Now we can declare a cease-fire (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
In article >,
Janos Szamosfalvi > wrote:
>I don't think the RFD about creating a subgroup for HIX would be
>as inflammatory as the renaming was. A sure YES from me since I
>don't read HIX and the articles just clutter the newsgroup.
I don't see any reason to create a separate .hix group. The traffic is
minimal. If you don't want to see hix articles, why don't you use a KILL
file? Not rocket science...
Gyula
--
Gyula P. Szokoly ) -------------------------------\
| When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according|
|to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom|
|because that is according to my principles. -- Frank Herbert|
|
|