As a matter of fact, you DON'T have to try it ;-(. There are much better
way of testing than carpet-bombing several hundreds of subscribers...

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>
"For my assured failures and derelictions, I ask pardon beforehand of my
betters and my equals in my calling."           -       Rudyard Kipling

On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Peter Kaslik wrote:

> Sorry. I have to try to insert a hyperlink.
>
>  <A HREF= "http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/huncor.htm"> HUNCOR </A>
>

Barna Bozoki claims that he does "not wish to take a side in the
privatization argument," but, of course, this is not the case. It is quite
clear from his writings that he, as a former employee of a publicly held
utility company, believes in the efficiency, effectiveness, and the less
expensive products of public utility companies. Although he claims that he
has no statistics, he quotes from a full-page ad in the *Globe and Mail* by
the power workers' union, claiming that

"In the U.S., residential customers of privately owned utilities pay, on
   the average, 33% higher energy rates than residential customers of U.S.
   public utilities."

* In Great Britain the "the Conservative government told the public that
  the private sector could run the electricity system better and more
  efficiently. They promised lower rates. The awful truth, according an
  Oxford University study, is that U.K. rates are at least 20% higher than
  they would have been under the former public ownership."

* ".. the top 100 managers in the newly privatized U.K. electricity
  system became overnight millionaires, with 200% pay raises and huge stock
  options."

Two thoughts occured to me after reading the union's ad: (1) one can wonder
whether a union's full-page ad is the best source for an objective assessment
of the situation and (2) one can inquire why this particular union is taking
out an expensive ad at this particular time in defense of public utilities.
Perhaps the Canadian government's latest decision to privatize its railroads
have something to do with it? Is there something under foot and the "gold
plate" of their equipment is being threatened?

Which leads me to another matter. I confess that I have no idea what
"gold-plating" means. It is not in the dictionary. Both Laci and Barna use
the term in a positive sense but if I had to rely on my own interpretation I
would think that "gold plating" actually means something fraudulent,
something which is glitzy, but behind which there is only base metal.

In any case, let's go back to the Hungarian utility company. There is no
"gold plating" there. The equipment is not up to standards. The company is
losing money year after year. The reason for their poor performance is
overstaffing and a couple of days ago Finance Minister Lajos Bokros promised
that the government would make the necessary cuts in order to make the
companies more attractive to foreign investors. Large investments are
necessary to modernize the plants and surely we all know that the Hungarian
government doesn't have the money. This year's budget included the possible
sale of a number of companies, including the sale of MVM. Thus, if nobody
buys MVM this year, the budget deficit will be even larger. This is not a
question whether the publicly held companies have a slightly better
performance or not. Indeed, this is an economic question: Hungary can't
afford to hold a "gold-plated" public utility company. It is that simple.

Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues,

Both the State Department and the European Parliament have spoken up against
the "language law." Other recent events include the decision of The New York
Times to publish our letter on Monday, the 20th of November.
         I would like to thank all of you who have already sent your letters,
including the 137 who also took the trouble to send me a copy. I also like to
thank those, who sent in the missing E-Mail addresses for the New York Times
) and Washington Post ) and those who
offered to organize the Hungarian Lobby in Canada  and
) and those who offered to start the same effort
in Europe ). I am sure, that others will join them and
eventually we will have an effective network on all continents.
         As several of you asked for a retransmission of the of the
formletter to the Foreign Affairc Committee, I am attaching that below.
Please note that it is more effective if you use your own words, if you have
no time for that, remailing this text under your name is also effective, as
what matters is THE NUMBER OF LETTERS RECEIVED.
Best regards: Bela Liptak

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The letter is to the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee, with copies to our
political leaders. The E- Mail addresses are: ,
, , ,
, ,
, , ,
, ,

         Copies are sent to our political leaders :
,
because Robert Dole does not have an E-Mail number, his Fax Number
is:202-228-1249
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


To the Members of the Foreign Affairs Committee, The Honorable Senators:
Joseph Biden,  Hank Brown, Paul Coverdell, Christopher Dodd,  Russell
Feingold, James Jeffords, Richard Lugar, Daniel Moynihan, Larry Pressler,
Charles Robb, Paul Sarbanes and Paul Simon.

Copies: The Honorable President Bill Clinton, Vice President Al Gore, Senator
Robert Dole and Newt Gingrich

RE: Language-Police in Slovakia

Dear Senator,

On the 15th of November, an unprecedented outrage occured in Slovakia. The
Slovak Parliament has passed a law, which authorizes the use of the
"language-police."  I ask you, as a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee
to resist this outrage. This law makes it a crime for a German doctor to
speak in his native tongue to his German patient. This law makes it a
criminal act for a Rabbi to speak Yiddish or Hebrew in a synagogue. It
outlaws the use of Roma among Gipsies in any Slovak offices, including the
post office. It could result in the jailing of an Italian opera singer, for
singing in Italian. And it outlaws the total educational system of the
600,000 indigenous Hungarians. These people did not emigrate into Slovakia,
they became minorities while staying in their own towns and villages, as the
borders were redrawn around them. The former Communist Prime Minister,
Vladimir Meciar considers them as a "problem to be solved" and attempts to
distract attention from the economic problems in Slovakia, by whipping up
ethnic hatred.
          While Meciar objects to cultural or collective rights, he approves
of collective guilt of minorities and therefore he keeps the  Benes Decrees
 on the books. These decrees made it possible to deport members of the
Hungarian minority and to confiscate their property. Because the United
States supports the rights of minorities, SLOVENSKA REPUBLIKA, a Slovak
newspaper, which supports Mr. Meciar, has started an attack on the USA. On
June 3, 1995 it wrote:  ... "20 million blacks, 6.5 million Mexicans, 1.5
million Puerto Ricans, half million Native Americans... have virtually no
rights in the United States. Compared with those minorities, the half million
Hungarians in Slovakia, perhaps one third of whom are Romanies, are only a
drop in the Sea".
           In the name of the 1.6 million American-Hungarians and in the name
of American respect for freedom of speech, freedom of religion and human
rights, I  respectfully ask the Foreign Affairs Committee to advise the
Slovak Government, that  our ambassador will be recalled, if this law is not
rescinded and the cultural group-rights of minorities are not respected. If
the precedent of a language-police institution is allowed to stand, other
nationalist demagouges could folow this example. Such events could
destabilize this already troubled region and create a flood of refugees.

Respectfully yours,
your name, regular mail address, title

Now Eva Balogh tells me that I am liar, yesterday I was rude:

>Barna Bozoki claims that he does "not wish to take a side in the
>privatization argument," but, of course, this is not the case.

I think she is not a careful reader, or I am a bad communicator.

>Although he claims that he
>has no statistics, he quotes from a full-page ad in the *Globe and Mail* by
>the power workers' union, claiming that

I have no statistics on the QUALITY of service. The quoted statements
from the union are not statistics and they relate to an other issue: COST.

>Two thoughts occured to me after reading the union's ad: (1) one can wonder
>whether a union's full-page ad is the best source for an objective assessment
>of the situation and (2) one can inquire why this particular union is taking
>out an expensive ad at this particular time in defense of public utilities.
>Perhaps the Canadian government's latest decision to privatize its railroads
>have something to do with it?

(1) This is a big union, with good research staff. I think they would not
    want to publish obviously false information. They choose facts, which
    support their interest, which is: to maintain the status quo and their
    well paid jobs. I see nothing wrong in this. It is not meant to be an
    "objective assessment", only to be considered.

(2) Yes, there is something under foot, the conservative provincial
    government is considering privatizing Ontario Hydro. They are very
    careful not to make a hasty decision, they welcome arguments from
    everybody, including the union.

>Which leads me to another matter. I confess that I have no idea what
>"gold-plating" means. It is not in the dictionary. Both Laci and Barna use
>the term in a positive sense but if I had to rely on my own interpretation I
>would think that "gold plating" actually means something fraudulent,
>something which is glitzy, but behind which there is only base metal.

This term was often used in Ontario Hydro to describe a design which is
better than what is absolutely necessary. A "gold plated" design is like a
Cadillac in automotive jargon. The engineers were aiming for the best
service to the costumers until the accountants told them: Fellows we can't
afford this, cut out the "gold plating".

>In any case, let's go back to the Hungarian utility company. There is no
>"gold plating" there. The equipment is not up to standards.

This is news to me. I have no hard facts on this subject. I only know that
the *Nuclear Engineering International* shows that 2 of the Paks units were
in the top 10 among all nuclear units in the world in 1992 and 1993. I also
have anecdotal evidence that the transmission network is up to standard.
The fact that the system can operate interconnected with Western Europe
suggests that it can not be too bad.

>buys MVM this year, the budget deficit will be even larger. This is not a
>question whether the publicly held companies have a slightly better
>performance or not. Indeed, this is an economic question: Hungary can't
>afford to hold a "gold-plated" public utility company. It is that simple.

I thought you said no "gold plating" *there*, now you say let's sell this
"gold plated" company. I don't think you or I know the value of this
company.

To me the issue is not simple, and I do not have the time and resources to
come up with a credible opinion. Therefore, I still believe that I am not
opposing or supporting the privatization, only inputting some thoughts to
the discussion. On the surface it looks suspiciously to be a case where my
good blue blooded capitalist broker's advice may be applicable: do not sell
a good asset to cover the losses on a bad one.

Barna Bozoki

Joe Pannon,you are correct,in this continent a commissions are made up from
members of the Electrical Association of PUC,the Association of Major Power
Consumers of (State or Province),the Energy Probe ( this is a watchdog group)
the Electric Co. and representatives from the govenment of ( State or Provin-
ce). In our case,this commissions has recommended a rate freeze for our
Electric Co.and thanks to this Electric Co.the rate freeze is on,which is
expected to go on for the next five years.By then rates will be 15 per cent
less than now in real terms!
So,as you can see Joe,there is a built-in incentive for the Utility Co.to be
efficient.( I should say publicly owned Utility Co.)
Joe,I don't know what the Hungarians are doing now, but I think(?)they must
have the same procedure.
Laci Toth

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Issue____________: *** HUNGARY 493 ***
>Date_____________: Sat Nov 18 00:44:03 EST 1995
>Publisher________: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
>Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Send-Articles-To_: >
>Subscribe________: >
>Unsubscribe______: >
>Help_____________: >
>Supervisor_______: >
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>HIXWEB___________: http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/  or  http://hix.mit.edu/
>ARENA____________: telnet hix.hungary.com
>HUDIR____________: http://www.hungary.com/hudir/
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Tartalomjegyzek:
>----------------
>
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Need Help Finding Hungarian Book ( 6 sor )
>
>Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
>Temakor: Re: Privatization of the MVM ( 42 sor )
>
>Felado :  [Germany]
>Temakor: 2 German want to visit Budapest ( 16 sor )
>
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Re: Freedom fight and 1956 ( 22 sor )
>
>Felado : Fencsik Gabor
>Temakor: Virtual Supporters ( 41 sor )
>
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Query request ( 10 sor )
>
>Felado :  [United Kingdom]
>Temakor: Sustainable Waste - WRF on the world-wide web ( 156 sor )
>
>Felado :  [Australia]
>Temakor: Re: Multiple Personality Disorder ( 30 sor )
>
>Felado :  [Canada]
>Temakor: Money business! ( 16 sor )
>
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Hungarian Lobby ( 27 sor )
>
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Re: anti-Semitism ( 34 sor )
>
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Have dinner w/Prof George Olah and Gov George Pataki ( 39 sor )
>
>Felado :  [Australia]
>Temakor: Re: Extremists hurt their own ( 20 sor )
>
>Felado : Eva S. Balogh
>Temakor: Media Watch ( 79 sor )
>
>Felado : "peter kaslik"@idirect.com [United States]
>Temakor: Test-Do not read it. ( 3 sor )
>
>Felado : Pannon Jozsef
>Temakor: Re: Money business! ( 23 sor )
>
>Felado : Pannon Jozsef
>Temakor: Re: Extremists hurt their own ( 5 sor )
>
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: 1956: no "szabadsagharc", word never used ( 366 sor )
>
>Felado :  [Hungary]
>Temakor: TOZSDEI LEGEK...szavazasa ( 21 sor )
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Need Help Finding Hungarian Book ( 6 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 02:36:20 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>I am trying to locate a book that was published in Hungary in the early
>'90s.  If you, or someone you know of can help in locating a Hungarian
>book, I'd love to hear from you.  E-Mail me at 
>and we can discuss the details.
>
>Thanks!
>
>=======================================================
>Felado : Bozoki Barnabas
>E-mail :  [Canada]
>Temakor: Re: Privatization of the MVM ( 42 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 03:22:48 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>My posting on this subject yesterday apparently was not clear, so let me
>try again to make my point about the privatization of the Hungarian
>Electric Utility:
>
>I do not wish to take a side in the privatization argument, I do not know
>enough about it. It is basically an economic, rather than engineering
>issue. I only expressed an opinion that a desire for more reliable service
>is a poor argument for privatization. In an interconnected power systems
>every member utility must meet the standards of the pool, hence there can
>not be significant difference between the service of the member systems.
>
>In the USA there are many private an public utilities, so a comparison
>could be made of the reliability of service they provide. I do not have the
>statistics to prove it, but based of many years of professional contacts
>with these utilities, my assumption is that the public utilities give a
>somewhat better service. They tend to "gold plate" their equipment.
>
>The other factor is the cost of power. In yesterdays's Globe and Mail the
>Power Workers union, in a full page ad made the following claims:
>
>* "In the U.S., residential customers of privately owned utilities pay, on
>   the average, 33% higher energy rates than residential customers of U.S.
>   public utilities."
>
>* In Great Britain the "the Conservative government told the public that
>  the private sector could run the electricity system better and more
>  efficiently. They promised lower rates. The awful truth, according an
>  Oxford University study, is that U.K. rates are at least 20% higher than
>  they would have been under the former public ownership."
>
>* ".. the top 100 managers in the newly privatized U.K. electricity
>  system became overnight millionaires, with 200% pay raises and huge stock
>  options."
>
>These and many other similar arguments leads me to believe, that one can be
>a "firm believer in private ownership of companies" and still see, that
>there are exceptions to the rule. In industries, which are inherently
>monopolistic, the private ownership not necessarily benefiting the consumer.
>I would very much like to read how the socialist Hungarian Government
>explained to the public the decision to privatize the MVM.
>
>Barna Bozoki
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [Germany]
>Temakor: 2 German want to visit Budapest ( 16 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 03:47:52 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Is there anyone around who wants to show us (2 german students)
>his capital Budapest at the weekend of 24.11.95 ??
>We dont speak Hungarian...
>
>
>Is there any youth hostel in Budapest??
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Herb and Didi.
>--
>Herbert Steffan  - Institute of Communication Networks,
>        RWTH Aachen, University,
>        Kopernikusstr. 16, 52072 Aachen, Germany,  Phone: 0241/805828
>        e-mail:  
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Re: Freedom fight and 1956 ( 22 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 04:26:23 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>My reference was to Hungarian terms, Hungarian tradition, Hungarian
>practice. Of course, English books do use the term 'revolution', so I
>have no quarrel with that. By Marxist schoolbooks I meant Hungarian
>textbooks printed in Hungarian in Communist Hungary for Hungarian use.
>
>I cannot prove (perhaps I could, but I haven't the time, sorry), that the
>Western press borrowed the term 'freedom fighter' from the Hungarians.
>But I am fairly certain that western reporters stated that the Hungarians
>were calling themselves 'freedom fighters' or 'Freiheitskaempfer' - and
>certainly not 'revolutionaries', as early as the week of Oct. 23, 1956.
>
>As to whether Hungary was or was not a part of this or that empire - that
>depends on how you look at it. I repeat my original contention: the
>existence of Hungary as an independent legal entity was never in doubt
>either in 1848/49 or in 1956. In the first instance, the Hungarian kingdom
>was still the Hungarian kingdom in spite of every abuse, and not Austria;
>in 1956, too, Hungary was a sovereign country de jure, and recognized as
>such internationally, even if, de facto, it was controlled by a foreign
>power. It was never part of the Soviet empire in the same sense as, say,
> Austria was integrated into the Reich, or Mexico was a Spanish colony.
>
>Louis Elteto
>
>=======================================================
>Felado : Fencsik Gabor
>E-mail :  [United States]
>Temakor: Virtual Supporters ( 41 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 05:42:23 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Andras Kornai makes the obvious guess about the person posting as
>"":
>
>> I think Andra1s Pellionisz writes this stuff. Apparently he needs to
>> create a virtual supporter of his position.
>
>This may be the truth, but not the whole truth.  "Dr Pellionisz" and
>"Szucs" indeed have many things in common: their writing styles, their
>peculiar logic, and their shared aversion to grammar.  They seem to share
>memories of past events.  They may even share a single body, and a single
>brain, for all we know.  But that does not necessarily mean the two are
>the same person.  The relationship appears to be more complicated.  It is
>possible that "Dr Pellionisz" is only faintly aware of the existence
>of "Szucs", and vice versa.  The medical term for this condition is
>Dissociative Identity Disorder.  The shorthand name used in psychiatric
>circles is FUBB.
>
>It is one of the features of Dissociative Identity Disorder that
>alternative identities assume control in sequence, deny knowledge of one
>another, or even appear to be in open conflict.  Each of the identities
>suffers from some degree of amnesia, but the relationship tends to be
>asymmetrical.  "Szucs" mentions his mentor "Dr Pellionisz" in a reverent
>whisper.  Of the two, "Dr Pellionisz" is the more hostile and controlling
>identity.  "Szucs" seems worried about disapproval by "Dr Pellionisz", who
>may be continually asserting control in the form of visual or auditory
>hallucinations.  "Dr Pellionisz" is the one seized with notions of
>"scientific" status and "prizes".  "Szucs" is the subordinate identity,
>less verbally inhibited than "Dr Pellionisz", perhaps because he has a
>constant need to prove his loyalty by 'overfulfilling the plan', and
>thereby avoiding the wrath of the dreaded "Dr Pellionisz".
>
>Half of the reported cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder involve
>individuals with 10 identities or more.  So expect more siliconvalley.com
>users to pipe up any minute now.  That's the bad news.  The good news is
>that even the most serious cases of Dissociative Identity Disorder are
>controllable these days.  Lots of excellent antipsychotic drugs have come
>on the market in recent years.  So don't give up.  There is hope.
>
>-----
>Gabor Fencsik

>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Query request ( 10 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 09:01:09 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>To the manager of the list:  A couple weeks ago I requested that you put out a
>query to the group asking if anyone knows of environmental organizations in
>Hungary.  I never saw my query go out on the net, but now I see a couple queri
e
>s
>of people seeking info about Hungary.  Can you please confirm to me that my
>query was posted.  If not, please repost my query:  I am seeking information
>about environmental non-profit organizations in Hungary.  Please address your
>responses to Doris Rubenstein, Univ. of MN, 123 Snyder Hall, St. Paul, MN 5510
8
> .
.  Thanks.
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [United Kingdom]
>Temakor: Sustainable Waste - WRF on the world-wide web ( 156 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 09:04:17 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>--============_-1395506435==_============
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>PRISM environmental information service
>
>I recommend our new W3 information resource for global information on solid
>waste management and resource recovery, information from our free journal
>'Warmer Bulletin' and much more besides.
>
>Visit, enjoy, contribute and tell your friends!
>
>Kit Strange
>director, WRF
>
>
>
>--============_-1395506435==_============
>Content-Type: application/mac-binhex40; name="PRISMnews.rel.doc"
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>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Up3!!:
>
>
>--============_-1395506435==_============
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>
>World Resource Foundation            Tel           +44 1732 368 333
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>Kent TN9 1DP England
>
>email      
>or            
>
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>--============_-1395506435==_============--
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [Australia]
>Temakor: Re: Multiple Personality Disorder ( 30 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 10:18:22 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Gabor Fencsik ) wrote:
>: His Master's Voice "" says:
>:
>: > Dr. Endrey turned out to be an existing elderly statesman-like lawyer,
>: > who lives in his retirement in Hodmezovasarhely (a good distance from
>: > Silicon Valley...). He breeds, on his pleasure farm, a dozen or so
>: > "Grey Hungarian" cattle...
>:
>: No mere lawyer he.  It's Dr. Jur., LL.B. (Hons.), QC for you, bub.
>
>i am not sure what qualifies the appendage of the letters "QC" to
>his name, for it was claimed on this newsgroup that the person in
>question practised in australia for 33 years as a solicitor. now
>a solicitor *cannot* be a queen's (or king's) counsel. only those
>admitted to the bar, i.e. barristers, may take silk, i.e. become
>queen's or king's counsel. in fact, in new south wales, the title
>is no longer issued. the entire classification was terminated, albeit
>reintroduced recently in the form of "senior counsel". i previously
>asked for clarification of the persons formal legal qualifications.
>the lack of a definitive answer increases the urgency of the question.
>
>: Calling him just a run-of-the-mill lawyer comes perilously close to
>: defamation.
>
>
>what are his formal qualifications and when were they invested and
>by whom?
>
>
>d.a.
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [Canada]
>Temakor: Money business! ( 16 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 10:38:23 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Eva Balogh;you wrote,you don't understand what I meant,when I said:
>"Private ownership would require a much higher level of equity,as opposed
>to debt,and the equity would have to earn a return at least 5-6 percentage
>points higher than the interest on the debt."(so you can pay the loan back)
>Say,you invest $ 500,000.00 in a business.You expect a(minimum of)6% return
>ON YOUR MONEY.Then you borrow an other $500,000.00 for this business.You
>expect a return from this business to pay for the INTEREST ON THIS LOAN,plus
>you expect a return from the business to pay back the BORROWED MONEY,say in
>15 years.You can figure it out how much money you have to make with
>$1,000,000.00 investment,a lot! So,when you want to buy an Electric Co.you
>must pay a large amount of money of your OWN,plus you borrow the rest of it,
>otherwise you won't stay in business too long.This is why,the Hungarian
>ratepayer will pay a much higher price for the use of electricity.
>Eva,I don't believe,that you don't understand this simple mathematics.You
>just pulling my leg?
>Laci Toth
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Hungarian Lobby ( 27 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 11:11:11 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Dear Colleagues,
>
>Thank you very much for your tremendous and fast response. The Foreign
>Affairs Committee of the Senate has already been flooded by letters and I can
>already report on the first response: The Chairman of the Democratic Party,
>Senator Christopher Dodd has written a letter to President Clinton,
>requesting that he protect the cultural group rights of the indigenous
>Hungarian population. Please keep up this effort, including your mailing of
>letters to the local papers. The first of these letters has already been
>published this morning.
>         We do have the E-Mail, fax and regular addresses of some 50 USA
>papers and of all Senators and Congressman.
>
>         Now a few problem areas, where you might be able to help:
>
>1) We do not have the E-Mail addresses of Senator Bob Dole, The New York
>Times, The Washington Post, The Chicago Tribune. If you have them, please
>pass them on.
>
>2) We do not have E-Mail and Fax addresses of the Canadian media and
>politicians. Please help putting that list tougether.
>
>3) Our European efforts to this point have been dismal. All help would be
>appreciated (from our Colleagues in Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, the members
>of Scout organizations), etc.
>
>Best regards: Bela Liptak
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Re: anti-Semitism ( 34 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 13:57:30 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>>In a genuinly democratic society everyone is free to keep
>>and practice whatever culture they want to.
>>The problem is when you claim to be member of a group
>>purely by your genetic inheritence; it is also impossible.
>>There is no such a thing as a pure Hungarian, or pure English, or
>>pure Jewish, whether you like it or not, whether it is
>>"Good" or "Bad". It is a fact. I'd like to be able to
>
>There is no such thing as always, but that doesn't mean that we should
>ignore wahat is usually true, or mostly of some character.  there may not be
>many pure Hungarians, and English, but does not mean tat there are no
> differences
>between their bloodlines.  I cannot go to India or Kenya or France and claim a
n
>y
>connection to those peoples and places, and for me to do so would be silly.  Y
e
>s
>we are all human and should therefore respect each other and help each other
>when needed, but that is not an arguement of destrying each other with kindnes
s
> .
>There is nothing wrong with saying, " I respect you and if you need help I'll
>be there, and we can talk and learn from each other, but I have a society and
>nation that I belong to, and that is not something I want to share totally and
>openly, since that would destroy it."  We can and shold help each other more
>with efforts like that in Somolia and should have done more in Ruhwanda.  That
i
>s
>not the same as opening your society to being overwhelmed by influences from
>around the world.  That is like taking every homeless person who meet into you
r
>house and letting them decide whcih holidays you'll celebrate, and what
>religion you'll worship.  You are not expected by anyone to go that far - you
>don't have to give up who you are.  You can help those people find work, and
> bul ild
>build them a home, but you don't haver to give them yours.
>
>Paul
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Have dinner w/Prof George Olah and Gov George Pataki ( 39 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 18:23:14 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Tickets for dinner still available
>
>pesentation of the george washington awards to
>dr. George a. Olah winner of the 1994 nobel prize in chemistry
>hon. George e. Pataki governor state of new york
>bela bartok one of the great and original commposers of musical modernism
>on wednesday, november 29, 1995 at the waldorf-astoria starlight
>roof reception at 7:00 p.m. Dinner at 8:00p.m
>Contact:  prof. August j. Molnar president 908-846-5777
>     during 1994-1995 the american-hungarian foundation is celebrating its
>40th anniversary.
>It was founded on december 28, 1954. The foundation is  devoted to furthering
>the
>understanding and appreciation of the hungarian cultural heritage in the
>united states.
>Through grants, the foundation supports students and scholars exchange,
>publications,
>academic programs, fellowships and research at american universities and
>colleges, serving as a bridge between the hungarian and american cultural
>traditions to enhance a better understanding of the contribution of each.
>In new brunswick,  new jersey,  the foundation established the newly built
>hungarian heritage center with its museum, archives, library, visitors
>center, conference and research facilities. The center also serves as the
>headquarters of the tax-exempt, publicly supported foundation. In name and
>symbolism the george washington award was inspired by the statue of
>washington, erected in the city park in budapest in 1906. It was a gift from
>hungarian immigrants  living in america. For the immigrants
>the statues serves as an expression of gratitude to the memory of george
>washington and to their adopted country, while not forgetting the land of
>their birth.  The george washington award of the american hungarian
>foundation honors those persons whose eminent contributions are in the broad
>field of human knowledge, the arts, commerce, industry, the sciences, and
>understanding among men and women and nations.      The roll of laureates
>include the hon. Gerald ford, dr edward teller, ambassador angier biddle
>duke, general robert wood johnson, dr. Eugene p. Wigner, admirl lewis l.
>Strauss, dr. Peter c. Goldmark, joseph pasternak, james a. Michener, chet
>huntley, yehudi menuhin, andre kertesz, raoul wallenberg, cornell capa, elie
>wiesel, tony curtis and many more.
>special student price for tickets
>
>=======================================================
>Felado :  [Australia]
>Temakor: Re: Extremists hurt their own ( 20 sor )
>Idopont: Fri Nov 17 18:55:19 EST 1995 HUNGARY #493
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>

Eva wrote:

>One can bring up not 41 but 141 examples, but in common parlance and in
>modern history books 1956 is normally referred to as "forradalom,"
>"revolution."

Yes, in casual Hungarian conversations this is indeed the case.
The term "szabadsagharc" is used in more formal treatment of the subject
I think.  Not as a replacement for revolution, but as an addition (i.e.,
"forradalom es szabadsagharc").
In English, I hear more often the word "uprising" in connection with '56
than "revolution."  This is also the term Imre Pozsgai used
("nepfelkeles") when he was the first of the former Communist leadership
to call '56 something else than "counter-revolution."  I kinda' like the
term "popular uprising" and perhaps it might be a good compromise term
between the pro- and anti-"szabadsagharc" camps.  I hope you all agree
it was indeed a popular uprising, besides just a revolution.

Joe Pannon

On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> Just a footnote to the discussion of privatization of MVM. Barna Bozoki says
> that the privatization of this public utility is an economic question. I
> would further state that it is also becoming a political question. The

Yes, unfortunately it seems that it is. But I don't think, that it is a
liberal/conservative conflict. I think it shows a mistrust of government,
any government. It is happening everywhere. In Ontario, the Liberal Party
was thrown out of office 5 years ago, last year the Socialists were thrown
out, now everybody is up in arms against the Conservatives. As Peter C.
Newman wrote it in his new book, we live in a revolutionary time. The elite
lost its credibility. The leaders must learn to govern by consensus rather
then quoting dogma about the power of market forces or any other dogma to
support their actions. It will be difficicult.

Barna Bozoki

Just a footnote to the discussion of privatization of MVM. Barna Bozoki says
that the privatization of this public utility is an economic question. I
would further state that it is also becoming a political question. The
"nepi-nemzeti/populist-national" parties and their followers are against the
privatization, claiming that selling this electric company to foreigners is
equivalent of "selling out country." The left wing of the MSZP holds somewhat
similar views for different reasons, of course. In any case, those who
advocate privatization are labeled as cosmopolitan, liberal-bolshevik, SZDSZ
followers or dupes, and, finally, traitors! Like myself!

Eva Balogh

I think Szuch is mistaken. He is wasting time on Kornai. Szuch
can show any figure of evidences. Can be 41 or 41 thousands, no different.
Using the comparation with the O.J. Simpson, when more evidence
was showed the jury wanted to acquitt O.J. even more. The jury wanted to
acquitt him because emotions. Rational "evidence" can have no victory
with emotions!

Kornai is jewish. Lived on Hungary. Lived very well! His father
belonged (and today also belongs) to the "ruling class". He sent his
boy to Stanford. Kornai liked Kadar's Hungary and feeled nostalgy in
Stanford because he lived on Budapest very well. But since 1989 the
old "ruling class" feeled danger because they know that many-many
 hungarians did not like communists.Therefore it was good for Kornai
to go to Stanford. And was feeling safe.After few years he liked
Stanford well, but Budapest was missing for him.

Kornai wanted to convince himself therefore that every hungarian is an
antisemitic. This is why he wrote few years ago into forum that
"szabadsagharc elmaradt", freedomfight was not there in 1956! He wanted
to read angry replys from hungarians,so that he will convince himself
that hungarians are antisemitic and therefore he can not go back.

No body told antisemitic things about Kornai when he first wrote that
Freedomfight was not there in 1956. Kornai wanted to get angry replys and
wrote hundreds and thousands of lines. But every body wanted to explain
him the freedomfighters with patiently.He was not interested. He is not
 interested now as well.

After few year an american women married Kornai.May be jewish but
not hungarian for sure. Kornai will not go back!Going to live on
Budapest is very difficult for Kornai.For her it can not be good at all.
Now, Kornai does not want so strong to get antisemitic replys, because
he knows that he is in america because she can not live on Budapest!
Now he "debates" because he wants people forgetting how ugly he
behaved! It is imidge-problem of Kornai.Like O.J. after he was
acquitted, now he wants his imidge that he is a good guy!Wants to
find "the real killer"!Kornai wants to find "the real evidence" that
 freedomfight was not there in 1956!

O.J. will find the "real killer" if he sees in a mirror. Kornai
will (perhaps?) know how badly he is hurting hungarians if he
"sees in a mirror". This was a good idea from Szuch! Much better
than wasting time to showing him a million evidences! The mirror that
Szuch was showing was not very good. I will be showing a better mirror:

Andra1s Kornai writes to a jewish internet list this letter:
        "My dictionary (webster) says that "holocaust" comes from greek
"holokauston". Dictionary: "a burnt sacrifice or offering, the whole of which
 was sacrificed by fire". I Andra1s Kornai (jewish) stand by my statement
 that "holocaust was not there"! It is very clear, "holo" is translated
"whole".
It is a fact of history that there was no holocaust because not the "whole"
jewish people died! If you want calling it holocaust, fine with me, but make
 sure that every jew dies! You can not call it holocaust if not enough jews
die.
 It is also a fact in history that even if those who died were not all
"burnt".
In fact, the reason of dieing was fire in a very little cases, perhaps 10%
or less, since jews were gassed away most frequently, or shooted by gun.
Military killing by shot guns is not "burning them". I am glad that
 historians agree with me in this! It is true that jewish were burned after
they died of gassing but the cause of dieing was not burning. Let us be
precise!
Why belabor the dieing when the question is if it was burning or not burning?
        Also it is true that many jewish sacrificed themself. Maybe killing
was not there at all! Since there was "virtually no military (not even
paramilitary) resistance"! There was one military thing in the Warsaw-getto,
but Warsaw "had no military significance whatsoever". How many jewish fighted

in Warsaw with guns, anyway? Maybe 200? Six million jewish could make a very
big fight if they wanted to! They did not want. This is what history shows.
May be they sacrificed themselfs. But *not* by burning! Fact is that
sacrificed
 by gassing themselfs! May be 200 jewish fighted against nacis. This is like
the joking when the guy whose wife is raped he stepped out from a circle.
200 jewish fighting, this is like stepping out from the circle two time.
The jewish council on Budapest protested (very weekly), they also stepped
out from a circle. But only once, no more.
        "Holo" (whole), and "kauston" (burning) is not O.K! Not the entire
meaning ("burnt sacrifice or offering") is good!
        "Figures don't add up, anyway".There are many numbers about
jewish killing. The sum of so-called "holocaust survivor" is very suspicios.
They all say to being "heros" although it is a fact of history that some
 jewish garded other jewish in concentrationcamps! Wanted to be volunters
to garding them! For few more carots in soup.It is iritating to hear such big

numbers claiming to being hero "holocaust survivors". Not only a well did
holocaust was not there, but also many of "heros" were volunter naci gards
 in fat cotton coats! O.K.,there was a few heros may be. But Holocaust was
 not there.
        With full respect,
        Andra1s Kornai"

Hi everyone. Hopefully one of you might be able to help me.

For some unknown (to me) reason I keep getting mail from some person about
Hungary. I think it is  or some such address. I have
written back to this address at least a dozen times asking to be taken off
of whatever mailing list I am on, all to no avail.

Can anyone have me removed, or does anyone know how I can block these
messages? They are quite lengthy, irrelevant to me, and take up valuable
space I could be using for other things.

thanks in advance.

---
 * WR 1.31 [NR] * UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY

Apparently, there is some renewed interest in Dr. Antal Endrey,
originator of movement to "Liberate Hungary from IMF Bankloan Slavery".
Dr. Endrey's "curriculum vitae" was published by him in his "Nemzeti Ujsag"
February 1, 1990, p. 2,. on the occasion of his running for the office
of "Representative". This is what he writes concerning his qualifications.

"Dr. Endrey kozepiskolait Godollon vegezte a premontreieknel, egyetemi
tanulmanyait pedig a Pazmany Peter Tudomanyegyetem jogi karan. ...
1944-ben a Pazmanyon "summa cum laude" szerezte meg a jogi doktoratust,
kormanyzogyurus doktorra avatasi kerelme folyamatban volt, de ezt
visszavonta, mikor Szalasi hatalomra jutott. Doktori disszertaciojat
a munkajog korebol irta. 1947-ben mint az orszag legfiatalabb ugyvedje
tette le az ugyvedi es biroi vizsgat, es Hodmezovasarhelyen nyitott
ugyvedi irodat. ... A Kisgazdapart ifjusagi szervezeteben vegzett
tevekenysege, valamint ujsagcikkei es beszedei miatt kenytelen volt
1948 novembereben Nyugatra menekulni. Kivandorolt Ausztraliaba, ahol
1956-ban kituntetessel szerezte meg a jogi diplomat es az ugyvedi
kepesites, ugyvedi palyaja soran negy evig volt az ausztral szenatus
jogtanacsosa es kiralyi tanacsosnak is kineveztek."

"Dr. Endrey, having finished the Godollo Premontre High School,
attended the Law Faculty of Pazmany University [in Budapest] where
he graduated in 1944 "summa cum laude" as Doctor of Law. His petition
was pending to receive his Doctorate with "Ring of Governor" [this
was/is an honor available to those who never in their education
received but perfect score, the Ed.] when Szalasi came to power -
thus Endrey withdrew his petition. His Doctoral Thesis was on "laws of
labor". He successfully passed final exams of attorney and judge, as
the youngest attorney in Hungary, and opened his Law Office in
Hodmezovasarhely... Because of his work in the youth organization of
Smallholders' party and his newspaper articles and speeches he had to
flee to the West in November, 1948. He emigrated to Australia, where
in 1956 he received with excellence his Law Diploma and certification
as attorney, and in his career as attorney he was for four years Legal
Council to the Senate of Australia and was also appointed to become
Queen's Counsel."

Given more interest, Dr. Endrey can be reached (during working hours)
in his Office of Law in Hodmezovasarhely (as he is a certified laywer
also in Hungary) at Phone/Fax 011-36-62-342-959. Quite a few
journalists did exactly that when interested in further details.
Although Dr. Endrey was branded as a "mere figment of imagination" by
some poor conspiracy theorist in this list, Dr. Endrey's existence in
Hodmezovasarhely is a well established fact. Thus, the conspiracy
theorist has been proven *wrong*.