Dear Joe,

Awhile back, you wrote:

[stuff deleted]

>But maybe I forgot to add one important element to my prior article
>regarding those House of Arpad kings.  What made them Hungarian in the
>final analysys and not Bavarian, for instance (even though they also had
>that ancestry), was their eventual emotional attachement to and
>identification with Hungary.  This made them to consider Hungary's 
>national interests first and foremost.  

I think medieval kings of dynastic monarchies, whether Arpad, Angevin,
Luxemburger, Jagiellon, or Hunyadi, mostly thought in terms of their
dynasty's interests, not "national" interests in anything like the sense
we mean it today. 

Surely it's in the retrospective view of later history-writers, 
especially since the later 18th century and most especially in the 19th 
century, that these rulers have come to be seen as "national" heroes (or, 
in some cases villains...).

But I agree that it would be best to consider as Hungarian those who 
identify with and have an emotional attachment to Hungary...  Rather 
than imposing a DNA test, for instance ;-)!

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

History Department
The George Washington University

In article > , 
writes:
>Igazolni tudna valaki azt hazulrol, amit a magyar jobb-
>oldal mond az otthoni on-jelolt ujnaci vezerrol, Szabo Albertrol?
>Marmint, hogy o Izraelbol jott volna Magyarorszagra.

Ausztraliabol jott vissza,
kabe 87-korul telepult ki oda,
rokonaihoz.

Tamas

In article >, Val Campbell > says
:
>
>I am looking for a Hungarian genealogy newsgroup.  Does anyone know of 
>one?

Val, I don't think there is anything that fits that description 
exactly, but you might be interested in 

soc.genealogy.slavic

There is also a very nice mailing list called Slovak-World, which
I subscribe to. 

You may learn more about these and related genealogy resources for 
Eastern Europe by looking at: 

http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~feefhs/

and related www pages.   This is a very active area just now, 
a lot of people are becoming interested and new resources are being
added all the time, so keep checking back to that site for the latest. 

Good luck,      Norbert Kremer      

In article >,
 > wrote:
| Ezt az eleg hosszu levelet egyszer mar megirtam, s mit ad Isten, pont
| akkor fagyott le a Halcyon szolgaltato gepe, amikor kesz voltam a
| kikuldessel!  Hu de pipa tudok ilyenkor lenni!
| 
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| 
| > Erre az egyetemre is jelentkezhet
| > barmilyen vallasu, de ha jol tudom ott is vannak kotelezo
| > vallasi targyak, sot papi ajanlas is javasolt.
| 
| Ezt teljesen ellentetes lenne a katolikus iskolak hagyomanyaival.
| (A piarista gimnaziumokba is jartak nem-katolikusok.)
| Szeretnem ha ezt bizonyitani tudnad, hogy egy nem-katolikus jelentkezo
| eseteben ilyen kovetelmenyek lennenek.

Nem tudom bizonyitani - igy nyilvanosan teszem fel a
kerdest... valaki a forumon allitolag a hivatalos
felsoiskolai kezikonyvbol nezte ki. Egyebkent a zsido
iskolak hagyomanyaval is ellentetes. A mai zsido gimnaziumok
mindegyikebe (kettorol a harom kozul konkretan tudom) - is
felvesznek nem zsidokat, sot jarnak is nem zsidok.
| 
| A diplomatikusabb kezelessel egyetertek, de ugyanakkor nem ertekelnem tul
| a Nyugat "szimpatiajanak" jelentoseget.  Oket ugyanis a magyarok sorsa
| csak annyiban erinti, hogy zavarja a nyugalmukat.  Ha a magyarok csondben
| vannak, mint ahogy a Cea korszak elso szakaszaban, akkor az azt jelenti,
| hogy minden rendben van.  Akkor mar inkabb csak razzuk azt a larmafat,
| hogy tudjak nincs minden rendben.

Ezzel a mai helyzetben nem ertek egyet. Szerintem az hogy
foglalkoznak a kerdessel annak - is k- koszonheto hogy
erdekuk egy demokratikus europa, demokratikus
allamokkal. Romaniaval eleg sok bajuk van, (egyebkent nem
furcsa hogy minnel erosebb a szelso jobb egy allamban kelet
europaban annal rosszabbul alnak?- csak ennyit arrol hogy a
magat egyedul patriotanak definialo szelso jobb mennyit
hasznal vagy art egy nemzetnek.) - es a Romaniai demokracia
"hianyanak" es Romania europai integraciojanak hianyanak
resze a kissebsegekkel valo banasmodjuk is (es peldaul a
nemzetkozi elvarasok visszautasitasa).

| 
| > Az otthoni helyzetet erteni kell ahhoz hogy erts hova
| > igyekeznek.
| 
| Oh, szoval meg azzal sincsenek tisztabaan, hogy hova igyekeznek?  Pedig
| azt hittem, hogy Europahoz (es a NATOhoz) szeretnenek
| csatlakozni.

Ez meg nem fedi le hogy hova igyekeznek. 

| Persze nem csodalkozom, hogyha allandoan koldoknezessel foglalkoznak,
| akkor nem tudjak hogyan jussanak A-tol B-be.  Meg a nagy kezdeti elony
| ellenere sem, ami miatt mar szinte minden szomszed orszag karorommel
| dorzsoli a tenyeret.  Azert egyszer mar szeretnek olvasni egy helyzet-
| elemzest errol a HIX "nagy" kozgazdaszaitol, akik a kulso adossag szerepet
| ebben annyira szerettek lebecsulni. 

Azt hiszem a kulso adossag szerepe nem ilyen egyszeru. Sokba
kerulne nekunk a kulso adossaggal nem a nemzetkozi
egyezmenyek, es kotelezettsegvallalasok szerint
banni. Egyebkent a valutaalap nekem is bogyomben van - de
ugy latom ezzel erre Hornek is rajottek, es
"diverzifikaltak" is az adossagallomanyt.


| Ha az nem az oka a lemaradasnak,
| akkor mi?  A tulmeretezett szocialis halo?  Ebben van valami szerintem is,
| de nem hiszem, hogy MO ebbol a szempontbol nagyon kulonbozne a tobbi volt
| szoc. orszagtol.  A nagy belso adossag?  De annak oka is talan mar a
| meglevo, s tovabb alig novelheto kulso adossag.  Remelem valaki ir majd
| errol akar itt, akar a FORUMban vagy SZALONban azok kozul, akik par eve,
| amikor a csehek elretorese eloszor mutatkozott, azt lebecsultek valami
| olyan magyarazattal, hogy naluk meg kesik a privatizacio es a regi
| infrastruktura atalakitasa MO-hoz kepest, s majd azt ok kesobb szenvedik
| meg.  Nos azota ismet eltelt par ev, s semmi komolyabb jele ezen
| prognozisok beteljesedesenek, mig MO-nak lassan mar nem lesz mit
| privatizalnia, s a bevetelbol epp hogy a kamatokat tudtak
| fizetni.

Azert ez nem egeszen igy van... Eleg jelentos torlesztesek
vannak es voltak, es eleg jelentos befektetesek, beruhazasok
is. Nem allitom hogy nem lehetne jobban, megfontoltabban
csinalni is - gyanitom lehetne, de a reszletek targyalasahoz
tobb hozzaertes es betekintes kene mint ami nekem van.

| Mar gondolni sem akarok arra, hogy mi lesz, amikor mar nincs mit eladni
| a nemzetkozi bolhapiacon.  Akkor majd a talpalatti foldet is eladjak majd
| a gazdag kulfoldieknek akik penztarcajaval az otthoniak ugysem tudnak
| konkuralni?

Nezd.  ha belfoldon nincs toke, akkor muszaj kulfoldon
eladni  - persze a megfelelo garanciakkal - ha a belfoldi
tokeseknek adnak el akor meg az a baj hogy no a szocialis
kulonbseg, es mindent a spekulansok visznek el (vagy a volt
kommunistak). A Kovacs neninek a 4b-bol nem lehet
privatizalni mert szegenynek nincs tokeje. 

|  Szoval jo lenne, ha mar errol is irnanak nagymellenyu
| kulfoldon elo kozgazdaszaink ahelyett, hogy allandoan antizassal vadoljak
| azokat, akik aggodalmukat fejezik ki a magyarsag jovoje
miatt.

Ok is aggodalmukat fejezik ki a magyarsag jovoje miatt, de
sajnos van egy olyan helyzet ahol a kissebbik rosszat kell
valasztani. Ezt konnyu kritizalni, de valos alternativat nem
hallottam.
| 
| > Akik regota itt vannak amerikai fogalmakkal
| > beszelnek (legalabbis sok az athallas). Ez a ket orszag
| > kulonbsegei miatt, (mar csak az Europa - AMerika kulonbsege
| > miatt) zavaro. A Magyarorszagon elo Magyaroknak kell
| > eldonteniuk hogy a Magyarorszagon elo Magyarok hova akarnak igyekezni.
| 
| Ok is fogjak, de nem artana ha azert odafigyelnenek azokra is, akiknek
| nem "csak" otthoni tapasztalataik vannak.
| 
| > Helyette kaptatok egy egeszen masik agymosast. (Itt az
| > agymosast nem feltetlenul rossz ertelemben ertem), ami nem
| > feltetlenul felel meg a Magyarorszagi Magyarok celjainak, helyzetenek.
| 
| Gondolod, hogy a magyarorszagi Magyaroknak egysegesen megfogalmazott
| celjaik vannak?  Ha igen, szeretnek olvasni roluk.

Nem, de azt gondolom hogy statisztikailag az otthoni
elkepzelesek intervalluma es az emigracio elkepzelsenek
intervalluma (egyebkent az SEM egyseges) kozott komoly
statisztikai kulonbseg van, ami reszben az eltero
""kultura"" - resze - a kultura legaltalanosabb
ertelmeben. Ennek egy resze a kulonbozo ""agymosas"" is -
sokszoros idezojelben.

| > OK.. Egyebkent nem kepviselem oket, es nem is allitom hogy
| > barmifele tobbsegi allaspontot kepviselnek. Ugyan nem reg
| > jottem el, egyre inkabb latok apro hajszalrepedeseket az en
| > felfogasom es az otthoni kozfelfogas kozott, tehat egyre
| > kevesbe vagyok "autentikus" ha ilyen egyaltalan letezik. De
| > szeretnek haza menni mielott ezek az egyenlore tenyleg csak
| > hajszalrepedesek elmelyulnenek.
| 
| S miert baj az, hogy a latokorod szelesedik?  Ez a hozzaallas emlekeztet
| a regi magyar kozepnemesi (Pato Pal-i) szuklatokorusegre (Extra Hungariam
| non est vita, si est vita, non est ita.)  Ugy latszik ez a betegseg
| kronikus.

Nem az baj ha a latokorom szelesedik. Az a baj ha a
hajszalrepedesek elmelyulese kovetkezmenyekent "szakadek"
keletkezik a ket hozzaallas kozott. Aki igazan ki tudja
szelesiteni a latokoret megorizve a harmoniat az otthoni
kozfelfogassal az jar a legjobban.

| | > En nem ezt valaszolnam. Inkabb azt hogy mas orszagokban,
| > kulonosen azokban ahol az emigracio gazdasagi, es ahol az
| > emigracio nem egy olyan periodusbol szarmazik mint nalunk 56
| > volt talan kevesbe szogesen mas az otthoni mint az emigrans velemeny.
| 
| Ez erdekes, mivel ahogy en tudom, 56 egy olyan szingularis esemeny a
| magyar tortenelemben, amiert szinte kizarolag csak megbecsulest szereztunk
| Nyugaton, s szomszedaink csak irigyelni tudnak erte.  Az 56-os emigracio
| meg elvalaszthatatlan ettol az imazstol.

Persze.. de 56 otthon is szingularitas volt. Magyarorszag
tovabblepettt, es sok mas esemeny es mindennap is ranomta a
belyeget a gondolkodasara ami az emigracional nem tortent -
nem tortenhetett meg ugyanigy. Ez semmit nem von le 56
erdemebol persze, de 56 ma inkabb nosztalgia mint realitas -
akkor is ha nagy buszkeseg targya.

| 
| > Ket dolog - Petovel kapcsolatban nem ertunk egyet, ez az
| > egyik - a masik pedig hogy azt a szot hogy liberalis a bolsi
| > nelkul meg nem hallottam konzervativoktol a hixen vagy a
| > useneten.
| 
| Az nem vitas, hogy a "liberalis" szot mara szinte teljesen kisajatitotta
| maganak a baloldal, akarcsak az angol "gay" szot a homokosok.  Igy aztan
| nem csoda, ha odahaza a libi szo ugy osszekapcsolodik a
|  bolsi szoval.

Ezzel nem ertek egyet. Ez szerintem megint reszben amerikai athallas.


| Azert a kiemelt kontextusban, a liberalis szo meg mindig jelentheti a
| hagyomanyos, Szechenyi-Eotvos fele nemzeti liberalizmust is.  Ez viszont
| manapsag mar talan csak a jobb-kozep MDFes korok kozott
| talalhato.

Ez egyebkent nincs is eltagadva toluk. Az MDFnek volt egy
liberalis vonala, amelyet reszben kirugtak meg (ha jol
emlekszem az MDF kormany ideje alatt) vagy hatterbe szorult
(szoritottak). Ehhez tartozott peldaul Beke Kata is.

| E fajta hagyomanyos liberalizmus es a bolsevik tipusu kozotti skalaban
| nyilvan van helye meg az olyan liberalisoknak is, mint te vagy.  Persze
| ez csak az en ertekelesem, s nem kell elfogadnod
| vitaalapnak.

Annyit elfogadok belole hogy a liberalis nem feltetlenul
jelent bal oldalit. De a bal oldali liberalis sem jelent
feltetlenul bolseviket a szo barmilyen tag ertelmeben. Ezt
az osszemosast serelmezen.

| > Ezert kenytelen vagyok - ha nem is magamra venni -
| > de ugy venni mint ha nekem lenne szanva. Egyebkent ez
| > tobbszor tobbektol nevesitve is megtortent.
| 
| Ezek valoszinuleg meg a regebbi irasaid altal vannak befolyasolva, amik
| szerintem sokkal aggresszivabbak voltak, mint a mostaniak.  (Biztos te
| is mar kezdesz belefaradni, akarcsak en. ;-)

NEzd.. Abszolut nem tartom magam agresszivnek, sot ugy erzem
hogy ha provokaltak is csak ritkan, vagy csak sokszori es
szemelyes provokacio hatasara valtam hangossa. Sohasem
allitottam olyant - nem is allithattam, meg ha agressziv
modon vitatkoztam is - ami barmilyen szempontbol bolsevik
besorolast tett volna indokoltta. 

| > Ugy tudom hogy az MDF az MSZMPvel akart tarsulni. Az MSZMP
| > es az MSZP kozott azert jelentos kulonbseg van. El tudnad
| > kkepzelni hogy az MSZMP a mai MSZP programjat kepviselne?
| 
| Az akkori MSZMPt mar a mostani utodpart (MSZP) alapitoi dominaltak (a
| Nemeth kormany alatt), tehat ez nem egy erv.

Csakhogy itt nem elsosorban  szemelyekrol, hanem
programokrol, celokrol, "policy"-rol van szo. Az akkori
MSZMP altal elfogadott egyetlen alkotmany egy
"allamszocialista" alkotmany volt, es ezeken a kereteken
belul lehetett csak veluk koaliciora lepni. Ez a mai MSZPvel
kapcsolatban nem igy van. 

| > Csinaltak rengeteg hibat - ez ketsegtelen - de szerintem
| > kevesebbet mint Antallek. Hogy vannak koztuk opportunistak
| > ez is biztos.
| 
| Az elso mondat vitathato, de a masodikkal egyetertek.
| 
| > Ilyet az MDFben is korlatlan szamban
| > emlithetek. Hatalomehseggel kapcsolatban pedig nekem ugy
| > tunik az MDF koalicios kormany messze tultett rajtuk -
| > erre szivesen emlitek peldakat is.
| 
| Ez ismet vitathato, mert szerintem ebben nincs szamottevo kulonbseg
| koztuk.  En mindenesetre kevesebbet izgultam a magyar hataron valo
| bejovetelnel az MDF kormany alatt, mint azota.  S nem a
| vamosok miatt.

Es  ugy talaltad hogy aggodalmad megalapozott volt?!

| 
| > PA igenis eltunt kamforkent. Ez az archivumbol
| > ellenorizheto.
| 
| En nem emlekszem, hogy PA akar egy hetre is eltunt volna. ;-)
| 
| Az Elekkel kapcsolatban pedig ..
| 
| > Nem tudom mit tett alapos szimatolaskent, de
| > meg mindig fennall az hogy vagy igaza volt, vagy nem
| > szimatolt, esetleg mindketto.
| 
| Jo, akkor a vita kedveert tegyuk fel, hogy igaza volt.  A kerdes meg
| mindig fennall, hogy honnan tudhat olyan szemelyes dolgokat gyanusan
| undorito szimatolas nelkul?

Nem tudom, de ha nem tevedek PA akkor egy igen erosen
ellenorzott NASA accounton volt. Nem hiszem hogy Elek Gabor
oda betort volna, vagy hogy ezt egyaltalan nyomtalanul
megtehette volna.


| > Csakhogy az otthoni emberek hangjat sokfele keppen lehet
| > lemerni. Egyebkent nem hiszem hogy valakinek felnie kellene
| > beszelni. Azert a HIXre Magyarorszagrol is irnak..
| 
| Ha-ha-ha!  Ezt most komolyan gondolod, hogy az otthoniaknak nem kell
| felniuk beszelni?  Az en szemelyes tapasztalataim nem ezt mondjak.
| Az igaz, hogy az ujsagokban, s nyilvanos helyeken elegge nyugodtan lehet
| szidni a kormanyt, de probald csak kifejezni velemenyedet a munkahelyeden.
| S ez nem szuksegesen szobeli kell, hogy legyen; eleg ha meglatnak nalad
| egy jobboldali ujsagot, vagy a nyaklancodon egy keresztet
(!).

Ami a jobboldali ujsagot illeti - nem hiszem, nem hallottam
ilyesmit, de mivel tobb eve csak honapokat voltam, dolgoztam
otthon nem zarhatom ki teljesen - bar mindennek amit tudok
ellentmond. Ami a keresztet illeti ezzel szemben viszont azt
hiszem eleg tapasztalatom van. Minden nyaron amikor otthon
voltam dolgoztam olyanokkal akik keresztet hordtak. Egyik
evben meg a fonokom is keresztet hordott. Baratom is van aki
keresztet hord, es semmifele megkulonboztetes nem eri oket
mert keresztet hordanak.

| Ez talan meg rosszabb ma, mint amikor meg en is otthon eltem.  Igaz, most
| nem a bortontol kell annyira felni az embereknek, mint inkabb a
| munkanelkulisegtol.


Istvan

In article >,
    () wrote:
[...]
>> En nem ezt valaszolnam. Inkabb azt hogy mas orszagokban,
>> kulonosen azokban ahol az emigracio gazdasagi, es ahol az
>> emigracio nem egy olyan periodusbol szarmazik mint nalunk 56
>> volt talan kevesbe szogesen mas az otthoni mint az emigrans velemeny.
>
>Ez erdekes, mivel ahogy en tudom, 56 egy olyan szingularis esemeny a
>magyar tortenelemben, amiert szinte kizarolag csak megbecsulest szereztunk
>Nyugaton, s szomszedaink csak irigyelni tudnak erte.  Az 56-os emigracio
>meg elvalaszthatatlan ettol az imazstol.
[...]
Melyik imazstol? A komcsi imazsatol aki jobbnak latta idoben meglepni, vagy 
annak az imazsatol akinek mar elege volt a komcsikbol. Mert e ket tipus azert 
meg ma is osszefuthat kulfoldon.:)
Egyaltalan, mit javit az 56-os emigracio imazsan, hogy pozitiv esemenyek soran 
hagyta el az orszagot?
Szerintem az 56-os emigracio igy vagy ugy de melyen sertett (sertodott?) ami 
bar termeszetes de egyaltalan nem kedvezo a tisztanlatas szempontjabol.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

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Ezuttal oromomnek kell hangot adnom mivel remenytkelto Jozsef 
Attila verset fedeztem fel a Nemzeti Forum oldalain. 
Feltetelezem hat, hogy lassan megunjuk az ertelmetlen vitat es 
hasznosabbal fogjuk tolteni az idot.
Szomoru viszont, hogy meg mindig vannak olyanok akik egymast 
oktalanul vadoljak, sot egyesek meg tragar szidalmaktol sem 
riadnak vissza. Egyszeruen nem ertem, hogy egyikutok a vita 
heveben mert nevezte "kurvanak" a masik edesanyjat, akinek 
feltehetoen nem sok koze van az ugyhoz? Remelem azota megbanta a 
dolgot.
Nehany nappal ezelott valaki arra kivant felszolitani bennunket, 
hogy amolyan feljelenteseket kuldjunk egy szamomra ismeretlen 
hatalmassagnak. O a fasiszta veszelyre akarta ilymodon felhivni 
a figyelmet, masok viszont a cionistakkal fenyegetoznek.
Barmennyire is elfogadhatatlan egyesek szamara, ezen a foldon 
elnek zionistak akik mindenkit el akarnak tenni lab alol kiveve 
a zsidokat. De elnek olyanok is akik mindenkit kinyirnanak, 
kiveve az arjakat, vagyis az angolszaszokat a skandinav nepeket 
es a germanokat.(szerintuk mi sem vagyunk arjak!) De vannak 
feketek is akik a feherek verere szomjaznak. Es persze 
baratsagos szomszedaink, akik a mi koponyainkkal szeretnenek 
kuglizni. Ezeket az embereket egyelore nem lehet a holdba loni 
velunk egyutt elnek es pontosan annyi joguk van az elethez mint 
egy ma szuletett csecsemonek. Rengeteget lehet viszont tanulni 
toluk, elsosorban turelmet! Gondoljunk rajuk ugy, mint egy 
dadogo emberre akit otszor annyi idobe tellik meghallgatni de 
ezert meg meg kell hallgatni!! A legtobb ilyen erzelmu szemely 
csalodottsagat, kiabrandultsagat fojtja ezekbe az eszmekbe tehat 
van remeny arra, hogy helyzetenek valtozasaval a velemenye is 
megvaltozik. Nincsenek "fasiszta disznok, nacik, cionistak" 
vannak viszont tudatlan iranyt vesztett emberek. Ez a kor 
kulonosen kedvez a tudatlanoknak. Keves kivetellel ok foglaljak 
el a legfontosabb allami es uzleti poziciokat. Ma mar csak 
kevesse igaz, hogy a tudas hatalom, a penz lepett tudas helyebe.
(Itt most nem feltetlenul targyi tudasra gondolok.)
Kivalo peldat tudnek ajanlani azok szamara akik igazan szivukon 
viselik a magyarsag ugyet. Akit erdekel tanulmanyozza egy kicsit 
a tibeti nep tortenetet. Nagyon hasonlit a magyarsag sorsahoz. 
Tibet lenyegeben megszunt letezni, a tibetiek ma mar csak 
kissebsegi nemzet a sajat hazajukban. A kinai otthonlapon affele 
barbar rabszolgatartoknak vannak titulalva. (Nem emlekeztet ez a 
roman ill. szlovak propagandara?)
Van viszont a tibetieknek egy kivalo vezetoje a Dalai Lama, aki 
szellemi folenyevel es rendkivuli embersegevel fel tudta kelteni 
a vilag figyelmet nepe szenvedeseire. Pedig csak keves eselye 
volt erre. Hiszen a tibetiek meg nalunk is kevesebben vannak, 
raadasul a vilag talan legerosebb allama ellen kell kuzdeniuk. 
Annak, hogy Tibet ismet onnallo legyen nincs eselye. De a tibeti 
kultura, nyelv es a nep meg van mentve. Tibeti intezetek 
alakulnak szerte a vilagban annak ellenere, hogy a tibetiek 
koldusszegenyek. Vajon mi lehet a titka ennek a csodalatos 
eredmenynek...?
Lehet talalgatni, kivancsi vagyok a valaszokra!

K.E.

>"I love you" in Igbo (spoken in southeastern Nigeria):
 
>A huru m gi n'anya.
 
Pĺ Norsk:
 Jeg elsker deg !   Eller:   Jeg er glad i  deg !

In Dutch :
  Ik hou van jou

In German : 
  Ich liebe dich

In French :
  Je t'aime

In Polish : 
 kocham cie

In article > ,  writes:
>Nincsenek "fasiszta disznok, nacik, cionistak" 
>vannak viszont tudatlan iranyt vesztett emberek. Ez a kor 
>kulonosen kedvez a tudatlanoknak. Keves kivetellel ok foglaljak 
>el a legfontosabb allami es uzleti poziciokat. Ma mar csak 
>kevesse igaz, hogy a tudas hatalom, a penz lepett tudas helyebe.

Attol tartok itt nincs igazad. Nem az onellentmondasra gondolok
(az is van am itten), hanem arra, hogy a tudas hatalomma konvertal-
hatosaga nemhogy hatterbe szorulna, hanem eppen a hegemoniaja fele
menetelunk. Olyan korba tartunk, ahol a penz is masodlagossa valik
az informacio birtoklasa mogott. Persze informacio alatt nem a Hubble
konstans vagy az elektron tomegenek pontos erteket meg hasonlokat er-
tek, hanem az olyan tudasra, amely penzze es hatalomma konvertalhato.
Regen az ilyen tudas megszerzesere penz hianyaban nem volt lehetoseg,
akinek tehat penze volt, az birtokolta a tudast is. Ez valtozott meg
mara.
A (fogyasztoi) tarsadalom hatarozottan uj erovonalak menten hasad,
a tomegek szamara hiaba all rendelkezesre a valodi tudas, ha annak
befogadasara kepessegeik miatt nem alkalmasak. Ehelyett potszert, a
negyedik hatalomag altal felkinalt informacios kabitoszert fogyaszt-
jak, ami ugyan hallatlanul izgato, erdekes  es laktato tud lenni, ep-
pen csak penzze meg hatalomma lehetetlen konvertalni.

A tibeti peldadat ertem, sajnos nem alkalmazhato Magyarorszagra.
Talan menne a dolog, ha minket is megszallna Kina vagy valamelyik
eppen raero szomszedunk. De annelkul nem fog menni, mert a puha
diktatura szetzuzta a tarsadalom onvedelmi reflexeit, kotoro kala-
paccsal kell a terdere b*szni, hogy legalabb kisse megranduljon az
a labfej.

Egy dologban van ossznemzeti koncenzus, zabalni,fogyasztani akarnak
barmiaron, ha kell eladjak magukat rabszolganak hozza. Noha a dik-
tatura miatt megvan bennuk az az osztonosult kepesseg, hogy atlas-
sanak a negyedik hatalomag praktikain, de nem akarnak, becsukjak a
szemuket, elforditjak a fejuket. Ok fogyasztani akarnak. Ha nekiallsz
papolni nekik vagy a nagykalapacsoddal hadonaszol, kirohognek vagy
ignoralni fognak, es meg jol jarsz ezzel, mert  ha komolyan vesznek,
te leszel nem terden, hanem jol fejbekolintva a vegen.

A magyar neplelek feletti nemzeti osszeborulas, kereszteny erkolcs
(egyaltalan ez a szo, hogy erkolcs irritalo ma) satobbi, nem mukodik,
ezt a kisatkos pontosan megmutatta.

Sem az eroszak, sem a szep szo nem hasznal. Ugy kell veluk banni,
mint Himmler tette a viccbeli macskaval. A simogatastol dorombolo
dog valagaba kente a csipos mustart.

Tamas

>OMRI DAILY DIGEST
>No. 46, 5 March 1996
>
>ESTONIA, FLANDERS SIGN COOPERATION AGREEMENT. Flanders Prime Minister
>Luc van den Brande and Estonian Foreign Minister Siim Kallas on 4 March
>signed an agreement on cooperation in transport, trade, tourism,

What country is Flanders?  Is it another name for Belgium or Holland
perhaps?  I only recall that name as a largely out-of-use popular name
for that region, but not as the official name of a country. 

Joe

************************************
*** TERMINATE THE HUMAN KINGDOMS ***
************************************
Peace and freedom is the common goal for all mankind. It is what people
hope for. It is also something God planned people to have since He created 
them.
However, For over six thousand years, this has only been a hope. Nowhere on
earth is there true freedom and true peace. There are racial conflicts and
international disputes everywhere. The inscription on a plaque at the United
Nations square reads, "They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and 
their
spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, 
neither
shall they learn war anymore." These words are a great mockery against the
United Nations Organization (UNO). This year happens to be the 50th anniver-
sary of the UNO. More than 180 heads of state gathered in New York for a 
grand
celebration. But what was there to celebrate? What has the UNO done in the 
past
50 years? What has it brought to mankind? We did not see swords turning into
powshares. What we saw were atomic bombs turning into nuclear bombs. Their
"arms reduction" was merely replacing out-dated weapons with new, more
advanced ones. Is there any nation that is unarmed? Is there any nation that 
has
not been building up its military? No, So internatlonal conflicts go 
unresolved.
The six-thousand year history of mankind can be called a history of chaos! 
And
what is the source of these problems? These problems come from what he world
calls "Nations." The nations are the source of all problems, and are solely
responsible for the world's chaos.

THE ORIGIN OF HUMAN KINGDOMS
----------------------------
   From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their
lands, everyone accordrng ta his own language, according to their families, 
into
their nations" (Gen 10:5). "These were the famllies of the sons of Noah,
accordlng to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations 
were
divided on the earth after the Flood"(Gen 10:32).
   There were no nations for mankind in the beginning. Man only began
to divide lands and form nations after the flood. Actually, God intended 
earth to
support every man and every creaeture. He did not make land for any nation or
regime to occupy. A nation must first have land to exist, but the earth has 
no need
for any nation. Human kingdoms [nations) are merely the products of degen-
eratd men--men who have dcparted from God. They are autonomies formed
by dividing the earth created by God. The nations are continually being
overthrown, divided revolutionized, built... They are very unstable, man-made
systems. They can be divided and can disintegrate. Some people say, "If a 
city
falls, none if its inhabitants will be safe; if a country disintegrates, 
there will be
no home." But actually, "home' existed long before man formed any nation.
Human klngdoms did not exist at the creation. Human kingdoms are the
chief culprits that have stolen the land and destroyed God's order of 
creation. 

THE NATURE, OF ***** HUINAN KINGDOMS *****
> ------------------------------------------
   Mankind builds nations according to their race, language and land. Every
nation on earth has its land borders. Therefore, human kingdoms are earthly, 
and
not heavenly. The descendants of Noah divided themselves into nations. There-
fore, the nature of the human kingdoms is to divide men into groups; they 
cannot
unite men as one. When the human kingdoms first appeared and grew, mankind
thought of building the tower of Babel, whose top was in the heavens, in 
order to
make a name for themselves (see Gen. 11:1-9). They wanted to exalt themselves
above God. Basically, human Kingdoms do not want God. They choose their
own kings and rulers. However God is the King of kings. He is the Ruler of
all mankind. But the human kingdoms do not want God to be their King; they
want to be kings themselves. Today, on such a small planet, man's kingdom 
have
multiplied to over 100 countries with over l00 kings. And the nature of all 
these
human kingdoms is to reject God. The nature of the human kingdoms is to
establish their own sovereignty and deny God's rule and soverignty. God
never intended the human kingdoms to exists. The more they develop, the less
they bring peace and harmony to mankind. The human kingdoms and what
they do are the most abnormal entities in the universe. Unfortunately, until
today, man is still unable to see the true nature of human kingdoms. He 
continues
to live under the rule of the nations, thinking it is normal. Therefore, he 
never
questions their existence.

PATRIOTISM IS A CORRUPT SENTIMENT OF DEGENERATE MAN
> ---------------------------------------------------
   As the human kingdom develop, horrible, degenerate culture, and corrupt
ideas take control of man. What are degenerate culture and corruptideas? They
are the concepts of having nations and loving them. It is natural to have
self-love and a love for others. So are loving one's homeland and family. But
loving your country (patriotism) is not natural. No one is born loving his 
country.
For a nation differs from a homeland or a family. Countries did not exist in 
the
natural order of God's creation. They are artificial products create by man
for political reasons. A country was never in the original plan for the 
universe.
"Patriotism" must be instilled into people. Nations purposely create 
political
symbols (such as national flags and national anthems) to make people 
recognize
them. And subconsciously, patriotism is perceived as being a virtue. However, 
if
man sees that a country is a mere, unstable, man-made system, he will realize
that Patriotism should not be regarded as an advanced sentiment.
   Under the ideologies and education of degenerate man, patriotism has
become a very high virtue. Citizens are taught to love their country. And 
everyone
must sacrifice himself for his country. Actually, human kingdoms are not 
ours.
Only God's kingdom belongs to us. If you want to be patriotic, then be
patriotic towards God's kingdom. Regrettably, many people are so patriotic 
for
the human kingdoms that they sacrifice themselves for them. They feel that 
such
sacrifice is valuable. But ask yourself this: Is dying for a country the 
highest
possiblc realm? Is it really worth it? Many Scots died for Scotland and many
English died for England. But since Scotland and England became one country
in the l8th century, should the people be patriotic towards Scotland or 
England?
Now that the war has ended, didn't those who died for Scotland and England 
die
for nothing? If Taiwan and China have conflicts, the Kuomingtong will surely 
tell
the Taiwanese troops to love their own country and destroy the Chinese Commu-
nists. The Chinese communist govemment will likewise tell its troops to be 
loyal
to their country and destroy the Taiwanese. So, since the people are under a
divided political regime, what should they do? How can they love their 
country?
Wouldn't the Taiwanese killing the Chinese communist troops be killing their 
own
people? And if the Chinese troops kill the Taiwanese troops, wouldn't they 
also
be killing Chinese people? How can man show his loyalty? How does one love
his country? Is it worthwhile for a person to love his coumry and sacrifice 
his life
for it?
   Such patriotism is tragic! Nevertheless, most people never realize it. 
They
think that dying for one's country is highly honorable. In Taiwan, there is a 
national
martyrs' memorial at Yuan-shan. Every year many go there to commemorate the
dead. They feel that those who die for their country are great. And why are 
they
so great? Because they died for the country. However there are more than 100
countries in the world. Which country should one die for to be considered 
great?
Which one should we love? Wouldn't loving one's own country be in conflict 
with
the interests of other countries? Is it really worth it to love a country and 
sacrifice
for it? Is it worth it to fight for the human kingdoms? Is it worth it to die 
for the
human kingdoms? No, not at all! Being unpatriotic is not immoral, and should
not make you feel guilty. However, since the concept of loving the country 
has
been deeply rooted in the hearts of man, man has developed an erroneous,
degenerate concept called patriotism. So patriotism is mistaken by man as a
virtue. But actually, it is a corrupt sentiment of degeneration.

THE LOVE FOR COUNTRY IS THE ROOT OF EVIL AND CHAOS IN SOCIETY
> -------------------------------------------------------------
   "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And
there will be famines, pestilences and earthquakes in various places. All 
these
are the beginning of sorrows" (Matt. 24:7-8). It is a sorrow for nation to 
rise
against nation and kingdom against kingdom. It is a disaster for society. 
However,
many political figures like people to call them  "saviors of the people." But 
who
are they meant to save?  The Chinese? The Blacks? The Whites? Actually, the
rulers are not saviors at all, but chief of disaster! To "save and protect" 
their
people, they are willing to kill other peoples. Therefore, the love for 
country will
bring endless destruction.
   Everyone shows his love for his own country. The Chinese love China. The
Americans love America. The English love England: The Germans, Germany; and
the French, France. This bond, once established. causes one to attack other
countries to show his loyalty to his own country. War is a result of 
patriotism.
   For the love of his people and his country, everyone is willing to fight 
till
the end. So nation rises against nation,and kingdom against kingdom. How much
blood will be shed! How many corpses will pile up! How frightening! How
foolish! This is the beginning of sorrows. The so-called love for nation is
indeed the root of evil and chaos in society! For more than six thousand 
years,
these bonds with the country have been deeply rooted in the hearts of man.
This is the strong fortress of the devil Satan which has taken the hearts of
man captive. Countries have become large prisons. In these prisons, there are
mililaty, politics, economy, Judiciary systems, culture, productions, 
entertain-
ment, drugs, and religions. These are the systems Satan uses to harm man. 
They
bring endless tribulations tragedies, murder, death.... Therefore, the God of
heaven will destroy this fortress, and utterly remove this root of sorrows.

*****************************
*** REALIZE GOD'S KINGDOM ***
*****************************

THE MOST HIGH SHALL DESTROY ALL HUMAN KINGDOMS
> ----------------------------------------------
   In 1980, God inspired the Prophet of All Nations to preach "Mt. Zion--the
Great Mountain--Shall Fill the Whole Earth" (see Dan. 2:35). Then God
moved him to preach another epochal message from the same book in the bible
"The Most High Will Destroy Great Image--the Human Kingdom" (see
Dan. 2:44). This message exposed Satan's deception for the pas six thousand
years: That the human kingdoms are the greatest image (idol) Satan uses to
receive man's worship. Satan robs God of His deseived worship from men. Since
childhood, people are constantly brainwashed by the systems of the human
kingdoms. The country is deified. Even the political symbols--nation flags
and anthems--have become objects of adoration. Don't they know what the
God who created heavens and earth is the only Most High? Yet, whether
they are great or small, all human kingdoms emphasize their own inde-
pendence and sovereignty. This is aIl Satan's ploy intended to deny God's
soverignty and rule. He causes man to place God's dominion outside the
boundaries of man's kingdoms. Thus, he restricts man's worship of God
within religion. And so, the nations and kings go their own way, doing
whatever they wish, greatly offending and opposing God's soverignty. Satan
then causes the human kingdoms to be in constant conflict. And many people,
under the deception of patriotism, follow blindly. They even think that dying 
for
the country is highly honorable. For several thousand years, countless souls 
have
fallen into Satan's tricks and the human kingdoms' deceptions. They assume 
that
it is proper for nations to exist. Therefore God must overthrow the thrones 
of
kingdoms and destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms (see Hag. 2:22).
God send the Lord Jesus to come and destroy the works of the devil and to
cast out the rulers of this world (see 1 John 12:31). When this 
happens, all roots of confusion and sorrow will end, and the original order
and harmony will be restored on earth.

GOD IN HEAVEN SETS UP A KINGDOM AND A KING
> ------------------------------------------
   "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom
which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other
people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall
stand forever" (Dan. 2:44). Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world"
(John 18:36). The kingdom God sets up is the kingdom of the Lord--the
church of the living God. All those who have reccived the full truth of 
Blood,
Water and Holy Spirit, and follow the apostles' leading, are the citizens of 
this
holy kingdom (see Phil. 3:20). They are fellow citizens with the saints and
members of the household (church) of God (see Eph. 2:19).
   Rulers of the human kingdoms join hands, to deny God's sovereignty. But
when they take counsel together, against the LORD and against His Anointed, 
God
issues His solemn decree, "Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion"
(see Ps. 2:1-6). This King of Zion is Jesus Christ the King of kings. He is 
the
King set up by God (see Acts 17:7). God bas not only set up a kingdom, but a
king as well. This kingdom is unshakable (see Heb.12:28). When Christ reigns,
He will end all rule and authority and will deliver the kingdom to God the 
Father
(see 1 Cor 15:24-25). When the human kingdoms are crushed, the kingdom of
this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He 
(our
Lord Jesus Christ) shall reign forever and ever! (Rev.11:15). This kingdom 
and
this king shall remain forever! The gospel of the Lord Jesus is the gosple of 
this
everlasting kingdom. It will be preached in all the world as a witness to all 
people.
And then the end will come.

Union of Church and State? Or Separation of Church and State?
> -------------------------------------------------------------
   The kings are only in power temporarily, but the Lord Jesus shall reign
forever. Satan uses the "kings in power" to attract the attention of the 
world and
to oppress the people. The world mass media reports only the acttivities and 
words
of the rulers. No matter how they came to power-self-appointed, through royal
lineage, by coup, or elected democratically--the rulers have become the focal
point of all people. To become kings, they do not mind if the people lose 
their
lives or their hard-earned money. And the people must humble themselves under
the rulers' contemptuous air. Even the religious leaders, who claim to serve 
God,
consider the rulers of the human kingdoms (Caesar) as their only king (see 
John
19:15). So the freedom to serve God has become a permitted right under man's
constitution, and faith is forced under the control of the human kingdoms. As 
a
result they debase and even enslave the church. The relationship between 
man's
kingdom and the church has become one of "church and state." This topic has
evolved into the irrelevant debate over "Union of Church and State versus
Separation of Church and State."
   In reality, that stone cut out of the mountain without hands (ths church
of the living God-the New Testament Church) is the "terminator" of the
human kingdoms (see Dan. 2:44). How can the terminator and the terminated
be united? However, talk about separation of politics and religion is also a 
fallacy
that debases the church. Both the union and separation of church and state
approve the existence of human kingdoms. So this is an erroneous concept,
because God has destined to crush the human kingdoms. They do not have
a relationship wlth God's church. Political-religious relationship may 
improve,
and each entity may even benefit the other. But the relationship between the
church of the living God and the human kingdoms wlll never improve. To the
church of God, the human kingdoms are only organizations which must be
destroyed. Therefore, man's kingdom and the church of the living God have no
political-religious relationship, and issues like "separation of church and 
state"
are irrelevant.

END HUMAN KINGDOMS REALIZE GOD'S KINGDOM
> ----------------------------------------
   The devil's seat is the human kingdoms (see Rev. 17:15), and the
human kingdoms are his camp and ruling territory (see Rev. 17:18). Through
thousands of years of development, the politics, economy, military, 
technology,
culture and other systems of man's kingdom have made astounding progress.
This is indeed the great city of Babylon recorded in the Bible. Satan 
controls all
the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and they are his trump-card for 
gaining
the worship of Ihe world (see Matt. 4:8). But the great city of Babylon will 
fall
in one hour and all her glory will become worthless (see Rev. 18:1-4).
   To sacrifce one's self for any human kingdom is to become an accom-
plice of human kingdoms. Such a sacrifice will be in vain. The nagure of
man's kingdom is to be independent from God and be at enimity with Him.
Therefore, loving these man-made organizations (the great image), which
were never meant to exist, is not a virtue, but a degenerate emotion from the
devil Satan. The end of the human kingdoms is near. The Kings of kings shall
strike all nations (see Rev.19:15). All people should come out of Babylon, 
lest
they share in her sins (see Rev.18:4).
   People should come out of the maze of patriotism, and cease from
participating in its related activities. God created man; man should give
themselves to God. They do not belong to any human kingdom. The prophe-
cies of the prophet concerning man's kingdom shall all come true. God will
terminate the human kingdoms. This is something He will accomplish in the 
last days (see Rev.1:19). Smashing the human kingdom is not destructive,
but constructive. Ending the human kingdoms is realizing God's kingdom--
the universal, and harmonious kingdom of Christ. This is the holy obligation
of the NTC: To execute God's sovereignty, end human kingdoms, and realize
God's kingdom. This is the only way for mankind to enjoy peace and rest.


---
GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST CRUSADE
Mount Zion, Chiahsien, Kaohsiung, Taiwan
Tel: (7)6701218-24
1995.11.3
---
<eof>

In article >,  > wrote:
| Kedves Barataim!
| 
| Ezuttal oromomnek kell hangot adnom mivel remenytkelto Jozsef 

| Barmennyire is elfogadhatatlan egyesek szamara, ezen a foldon 
| elnek zionistak akik mindenkit el akarnak tenni lab alol kiveve 
| a zsidokat. 

Ezt honnan veszed?


| K.E.
|

In article >,
 > wrote:
| T. Kocsis  > wrote:
| >
| >Ausztraliabol jott vissza,
| >kabe 87-korul telepult ki oda,
| >rokonaihoz.
| 
| Koszonom az infot, Tamas.  Csak 87-ben telepult ki Australiaba, s mar
| idoben vissza is jott, hogy bajkevero legyen?  Mivel 87-ben meg nem
| volt olyan konnyu ausztral kivandorlasi engedelyt szerezni Kadarektol,
| gondolom nem egyenesen Magyarorszagrol telepult ki oda, igaz?
| De kulonben is, honna ered ez a jobboldali pletyka, hogy Szabo Izraelbol
| jott?  Semmi valosagalapja sincs ennek?
| 
| PJ


Nem hiszem hogy 87ben olyan nehez lett volna kivandorlasi
engedelyt szerezni. Nekem egy osztalytarsam akkor (talan
88ban) telepult ki Nemetorszagba, mindenfele bonyodalom
nelkul O egyebkent vallasi okokra hivatkozott (valamyik
Kereszteny kisegyhazhoz tartozott). 
Igaz hogy Csurka volt Izraelben Soros penzen , de
azert minden szelsojobboldalit nem lehet a Szentfoldhoz
kotni ;)

Mas.. Gondolod hogy ha Szabo Albert Izraelbe vandorolt volna
ki - es kulonosen ha ez koztudott lenne- akkor a Hungarista
tamogatasa megmaradna? 

Istvan

In article >, Zion > says:
>
>************************************
>*** TERMINATE THE HUMAN KINGDOMS ***
>************************************
>[ deleted -- too long ]
>
>
>---
>GRACE OF JESUS CHRIST CRUSADE
>Mount Zion, Chiahsien, Kaohsiung, Taiwan
>Tel: (7)6701218-24
>1995.11.3
>---
><eof>

WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS THIS ?

In article >,


| 	Before we enter too deep into qualifying declarations over 
| personally sympathetic and personally less sympathetic political 
| personalities I would like to draw the attention of the readers of this 
| list to a recently (last week, BLA, March 1, 1996)  published  poll made 
| in last November by the Magyar Gallup on ethnic tolerance among 
| sympathizers of political parties of the Hungarian Parliament. 
| 	(Preliminary definitions (following Gyula Illyes):
| Patriot: who defends the interests of a nation (positive nationalist)
| Nationalist: who hurts the interests of other nations
(negative patriot))


| 	
| 	Now the questions and the affirmative answers (%) of the Gallup 
| poll: 
| 1) Have you got positive sentiments towards your Magyar nation?
|      MDF - 73%	SzDSz - 40%  (other parties not
mentioned by BLA)

I'd love to hear what this sounded like in
Hungarian... Since many of the phrases in this sentence are
highly politically charged, and are not well defined - I th
ink it would be important to know what those who answered
the question exactly received. BTW I think this would be
important for all of the questions but this seems to be
particularly sensitive for the above mentioned reasons.

In article >,
Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>>Nyugaton, s szomszedaink csak irigyelni tudnak erte.  Az 56-os emigracio
>>meg elvalaszthatatlan ettol az imazstol.
>[...]
>Melyik imazstol? A komcsi imazsatol aki jobbnak latta idoben meglepni, vagy

Az en imazsomon pl. sokat javitana ha birtokolnek egy szigetet a Karib 
tengerben, Florida deli resze korul,...palmafak...pasztell szinek...lagy 
zene...a tenger moraja...kubai nok...

Gabor

Hungarian born, Canadian businessman-accountant   will travel to Budapest
during the summer,1996 for three weeks.

   Will take on assignments to look for business opportunities,  do
investment and business evaluations and audits.

-- 
Robert Gelb, Robert Gelb and Associates Inc.                 
12 Bradenton Drive,Willowdale,Ontario M2H 1Y5, Canada                          
                                                                               
                                                                            
(905)940-2380, (905)946-1734 FAX                       
e-mail: 
- Investment Specialists             
- Business Plan Preparations and Evaluations,                           - Busin
ess Management and Financial Consulting                       
- Mergers and acquisitions

aggyisten!
	(I have forgotten that I did not follow the procedure several 
months ago, by which one gets authorized to send a posting to the Hungary 
list of GWU. Therefore this letter was rejected from that list. 
Unfortunately I do not remember the procedure. The apropos of the 
following letter was an insinuation-like qualifying note about leading 
persons of the MDF posted on Monday, March 11, 1996, in the Hungary list 
of GWU, but with this rejection I think it may have some general meaning 
beyond its apropos, thus I make a trial with SCM.)

	Before we enter too deep into qualifying declarations over 
personally sympathetic and personally less sympathetic political 
personalities I would like to draw the attention of the readers of this 
list to a recently (last week, BLA, March 1, 1996)  published  poll made 
in last November by the Magyar Gallup on ethnic tolerance among 
sympathizers of political parties of the Hungarian Parliament. 
	(Preliminary definitions (following Gyula Illyes):
Patriot: who defends the interests of a nation (positive nationalist)
Nationalist: who hurts the interests of other nations (negative patriot)) 

	Abbreviations: 
MSzP - Magyar Socialist Party, (governing reformed communists)
SzDSz - Liberal Democratic Allience  (governing coalition partner)
FKGP - Independent Small-Holder's Party, 
KDNP - Christian-Democratic People's Party, 
Fidesz - Allience of Young Democrats (Hungarian Citoyen's Party),   
MDF - Magyar Democratic Forum (President: Antall Jozsef (1990-1993) and 
	after his death Fur Lajos (1993-1996), and in November still 
	together  Lezsak Sandor - the nationalistic populist - 
	and Szabo Ivan - the "less" nationalistic). 
	
	Now the questions and the affirmative answers (%) of the Gallup 
poll: 
1) Have you got positive sentiments towards your Magyar nation?
     MDF - 73%	SzDSz - 40%  (other parties not mentioned by BLA)

(for me this was the question related to patriotism, all the others 
following are related to nationalism)

2) Would you wish the limitation of immigration of colored people into 
Hungary?
FKGP - 42%, KDNP - 35%, MSzP - 34%, SzDSz - 25%, MDF - 18%, Fidesz - 15%
  
3) Do you have alienated or distanced feelings towards Romas (Gypsies)?
KDNP - 50%, Fidesz - 48%, MDF - 44%, FKGP - 43%, MSzP - 42%, SzDSz - 33%
                          ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^  here the 
difference is statistically negligible 

4) Do you dislike Jews? 
FKGP - 12%, KDNP - 11%, MSzP - 7%, Fidesz - 6%, MDF - 6%, SzDSz - 4%

Why is MDF so bad? Why is MDF still the "nationalistic populist" (some 
part of it "less" but still nationalistic) party?
In addition to the above statistics, may I try to remind the readers (and  
especially the educated and professional writers of the Hungary list of 
GWU): who were the  firm pillars supporting Jozsef Antall in January, 
1993, against Istvan Csurka? Perhaps against their own personal 
sympathies, but recognizing  the interests of Hungary? Yes, two names: 
Sandor Lezsak and Lajos Fur.  Has anybody heard the name of Ivan Szabo 
then in other context, than as a politically almost neutral (of course 
an MDF member professional) minister of finance of the Antall government?    
	The separation inside the MDF is a spoiled step. Both of the two 
candidates for the presidency had been honorable persons. The party 
members could have accepted any of them, only that we wanted to have an 
end put by the congress to the indecisiveness and ambiguities. Both 
candidates had promised to stay in the ranks and files of the party and 
after the congress one of them could not keep his word. Bad for him. 
Could you guess, whether Sandor Lezsak could have wanted to make such a 
step of a looser? 
Still, Ivan Szabo's  hard and painfully thought-over decision is to be 
respected, and the "October 23 follower" national rightists should at 
last cooperate against the "November 4 follower" international leftists. 

	But certainly, as usual, the mud should be thrown at the MDF...
	And history should be distorted, as usual...

 	God bless us all - istenvelunk...	kadargyorgy

 wrote:

A group
>elvileg a magyar kultura problemaival kellene hogy foglalkozzon, de ahogy
>nezem, inkabb a tobb mas groupban is megszokott sardobalas folyik. Zsido-nem
>zsido, kereszteny-szektas-ateista, jobboldali-baloldali meddo vitak folynak.
>Nem igazan tudom elkepzelni, hogy ebbol allana a magyar kultura, vagy ha megis
,
>hat kisse mas a budapesti kulturafelfogas, mint felenk Gyorben.

Arrol nem is beszelve, hogy a soc.culture.magyar NG-on mar alig
hallani az angol mellett magyar szot...
Kaszi