>Review, or some other journal from UK, written by Paul Vysny, that _did_
>compare Slovakia to Scotland in many ways...

Perhaps more people disregard geographers and compare Scotts and Slovaks:

Eleanor Moodie, Ivana Markova and Jana Plichtova (1995)
        Lay Representations of Democracy: A Study in Two Cultures.
        in: Culture & Psychology, pp. 423-453.


Thanks to Eva for the _Upland_, I'd say it's the best translation.
Is there a point in the past before it ceases being historically
accurate?  I remember you commented on a related topic in the more
distant past (linked to the Ottoman expansion and Royal Hungary).


Martin

Hi Andy ... nice to hear from 'ya again!

At 07:15 PM 13/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I have to make a confession:I was in correspondence with this person for a
>very short period of time.
[...]
How could you have possibly avoided him?  If you were treated similar to
any of the rest of us, likely your Email was inundated by unsolicited mail
from him from the moment that he appeared on this group - by the zillions?.
 His first of many many  to me, was rather an apologetic one, claiming that
my misunderstandings of the hungarian mentality as written by another, had
to do with the fact that I was not Hungarian.  It then regressed from there
to my being a lost *young* soul, lashing out at my parents...to even worse
 ... offering himself to be my father figure, since he felt like I needed
one; more bizarre was that he actually believed he could fill that shoe
 .... should he have been privy to a tad at all of my life past and present,
even he, himself would have realized how incredibly ridiculous all of this
assumption were.

>My reason was to see behind him,and find out who and what he is.
[...]
I must admit, that he was transparent to me, from the word go.  And, I
still stand by my bizarre instinct that he is Dr. Szucs using another
alias.  (Just can't let that go for some reason).

>In our first correspondence I did not tell him too much about myself.
>Then he awnsered me I am OK as a hungarian.
>I wrote him another note,where I told him 1 being Jewish,born in Hungary.
>I also mentioned the attrocitys myself and our family suffered from some
>hungarian hands,including the Nazi regime,followed by the Rakosi regime.
>His awnser was largly to say good buy.Now all of a sudden I wasn.t OK.
>I am positive he is still lurking arround here,and still tries to influence
>people on the new Szabad.
[...]
He will only ever influence those who wish to be influenced.  Those, with
similar mind sets to his own - that's all.  And his influence will but last
so long as he's able to keep himself from picking up on a minute word,
which he will then mutilate, manipulate what have you, in order to suit
whatever it is his purpose is ... at that particular given moment.

One must be careful though, he appears to be far from stupid ... in fact,
one whom I consider a most malicious of all clever;  his manipulative
actions even led to Bela Liptak believing in his sincerity for now .... for
some reason though I am still haunted by his "Hollywood styled glitter &
all exit" from this group ... one he obviously cannot lay to rest, since
all his trash appears over and over and over again ;-(

>Well now that he is retired from the Forest service,he can put his energy to
>blame evryone on this list to be anty Hungarian.
[...]
You know ... some, in order to deal with the "heavy baggage" feels
compelled to unload some or all of the weight to any perceived to be
willing to receive other?  Lest it becomes "un-manageable" to their own
phsyce. (in his case, the word "some", ought to be replaced by "all" in my
opinion).

>The people in Hungary have enough problems,they rely do not need this person.
[...]
Amen

>Good riddance.
[...]
Amen, again.... but I don't think that we will ever be so lucky.  He likes
being the center of attention, he adores to boast of days gone by so it
seems... I have yet to see him do anything bravely positive or even
minutely significant - save his manipulative stuff which he is clearly
expert in. I guess it's no mystery ... I really, truly dislike what he has
shown himself to be ....& am afraid this post will but fuel his needs ...
hope not!

Best regards,
Aniko
PS - Happy Valentine's to one and all!

Eva Balogh wrote :

<<We were not the Balkans. Or, we were not Romania >>

Hold on, Eva,
where was the difference? ( Asking out of
personal experience )

<<between the two world wars >>

and therafter

<<where even ministers could be bribed.>>>

yes, but they took an appropriately higher price.

<<<But, at the same time,
let's not talk about "our morality" in such glowing terms because I suspect
our former virtues are somewhat exaggerated.>>>

As ever, Eva, Amen.

Kedves Gabor e's Peter!

At 01:10 13/02/97 PST, Gabor wrote:
>Mr Peter Orban proposes a letter to be sent to the new President of
>the International Court at the Hague:

<snipped Peter's message>

>I do not doubt the proposed letter was written with the best of intentions.
>I am all for lobbying presidents, vice-presidents, legislators, journalists,
>and diplomats, but judges are a different matter altogether.  I think this
>form of political pressure on judges and justices is a very questionable
>proposition.
>
>Judges are affected by politics, but they are not politicians.  The main
>thing, indeed the only thing, expected of a judge is to be impartial in
>the weighing of the evidence presented in his court by advocates of the
>opposing sides.  The only legitimate way of influencing a court decision
>is by being party to the case, or joining it as amicus curiae and arguing
>it in the courtroom.

As a lawyer, my instinctive reaction is to agree completely with Gabor's
statements. I would note, however, that I am not familiar with practice in
the World Court, and I suppose it is at least theoretically possible that it
is considered to be acceptable to pressure the court. However, it would
definitely be totally unacceptable to apply pressure to any other court I
have ever heard of and would be liable to result in censure of the party
doing the pressuring. Therefore I agree that the most likely result (at
least) is a backlash against the Hungarians by the members of the bench.
Their arguments should stand or fall on their own merits and not depend on
lobbying by the members of the Hungarian community.

<snipped Gabor's last paragraph>
>-----
>Gabor Fencsik


Tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Kedves Peter!

At 11:39 13/02/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear friends,
>
>to a certain point I agree with the arguments of Gabor. However - I
>wish to emphasize these words of Gabor - even judges are humans and
>thereby influenced by their environment.

Yes, but as Gabor said, sometimes the reaction can be a backlash. Thus the
action is counter-productive.
>
>For instance:
>Last year the former colonel of the SS Priebke was accused in Italy
>for being responsible for war crimes. The highest Italian military
>court acquitted him (I think it was because of the lack of evidence).
>The indignation of the Italians brought the court to charge him in a
>new lawsuit.
>
But that is a military court, as you note above, which operates on different
rules than a civilian court. No civilian court in a western country brings
charges. The charges are brought by a prosecutor, usually acting on behalf
of the people or the state, and are opposed by the defense. It is an
adversarial system, and the judges are impartial arbiters between the two
sides. They are to judge the evidence (Unless there is a jury, in which case
the jury decides on the facts of the case) and apply the law to reach a just
decision. They are not to consider facts which are not in evidence, and I
can assure you that public pressure at the least should be ignored.

A further point - there is a big difference between public indignation
expressed in the media and pressure brought to bear directly on a judge in a
case, which, unless you can show me something to establish that the World
Court is different than any other court I know of, is completely out of line.
>Even at the recent lawsuit we have already reached al lot by our
>letter campaign. Thanks to the public pressure the court decided that
>environmental organizations (including the Foundation for the Hungarian
> environment
>lead by Bela Liptak) can join the lawsuit as a third party.

I doubt very much if the public pressure was the reason that the
environmental organizations were allowed to join as a third party. It was
more likely that they were held to have a legitimate interest in the
proceedings which they should be allowed to express - again, in the forum of
the court and not by pressuring the judges on the side. Believe me! It may
make you feel good to think that you are doing something to help the case,
but lobbying the judges on the case is more likely to be counter-productive
than not. I recommend, since I am only a somewhat knowledgeable layperson on
this point, that you get the opinion of a lawyer who has practiced before
the court. Ask the lawyer representing one of those environmental
organizations what the acceptable practice would be.
>
>Thus, I think we should continue our letter campaign.

As I said, I disagree.

>Best wishes
>Peter

Tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

At 06:44 PM 2/13/97 -0500, Eva Balogh, responding to Gyorgy Kadar, wrote:

<snip>
<But, at the same time,
>let's not talk about "our morality" in such glowing terms because I suspect
>our former virtues are somewhat exaggerated.

They always are exaggerated by the political right wing.  The virtuous past
is their lifeblood.  They, and I include Gyorgy Kadar, never talk about
class divisions before the war.  They never mention the rampant, almost
'natural',  nepotism among the elite in Hungary.  And, ironically enough,
they never talk about freedom or democracy.  They're too busy talking about
'duty', 'respect', 'obedience', and 'god'.  They're looking for a father figure
.

Qui bono?

Joe Szalai

In article >,  writes:

>Subject:       stowestyle
>From:  
>Date:  Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:04:13 GMT
>
>Sam, your most eloquent response among other
>gems included your statement: "And I get paid pretty
>decent bucks to write, by the way"
>
>I am happy to hear this. You see, instead
>of watching the " Greatest Bloopers" on TV,
>now we read your 'masterpieces' on the
>subject of Hungarian history and  your
>lines on reverse engineering. And we are roaring
>with laughter!!

Would that be the royal "we" or the Stalinist "we," Mark? You seem to have
merged your consciousness into some larger collective to the extent that you no
longer have a last name, but are limping along on initials. Does this mean
you'll eventually get to the point where you shrug off the bonds of Markdom and
make do with just an unpronounceable symbol for a name? Will the rest of us be
able to get by with referring to you as the Pretentious Horse's Patoot Formerly
Known As Mark O.F.?

>
>We can hardly wait to read your Magnus Opus.

If you like it, will you put me on the New Year's honor list so I can get a
knighthood?

>
>So, please consult Aunty  Ayn,  fire up the
>upgraded abacus and write something
>entitled, " Why they did not laugh on
>soc.culture.welsh"

Because a good portion of them are smug twits like you. They, at least, have
the saving grace of being smart enough to know that an abacus is used for
counting, not writing.

>
>Admiringly
Bite me, Uriah Heep.

>
>                           Mark O.F.

Sam Stowe

"Nasal phlegm. Some guys may think it's
funny, Mr. Noir, but it's not."
-- The bartender in Guy Noir's office building

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>My crackpot theories?  Why do you call them that?  Because you can't
>understand them?  Or is it because you haven't discovered them yet?  Some of
>my crackpot theories about 'corporatism' come from John Ralston Saul.  His
>latest book, "The Unconscious Civilization", which is about corporatism, won
>the Governor General's Literary Award late last year.  You may also be
>interested in one of his major works, "Voltaire's Bastards: The Dictatorship
>of Reason in the West".

You really think so? Good, because now I have a valid reason for having bought
"Voltaire's Bastards" when it first came out in hard-back and reading it.
Thanks for tipping me about his new one. I'll see if I can get it at the
library this weekend. Here's one for you -- try Stephen Toulmin's "Cosmopolis:
The Hidden Agenda of Modernity." I think you'll like it.

<sznip Joe's plug for John Ralston Saul> <Saul really is worth reading, by the
way, as is Daniel Bell's "Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism" (I think
that's the title)>


><snip>
>>Gee, why speak so hatefully of the proletariat unless you believe that
>>stuff about an intellectual vanguard which will lead the masses to a
>>higher class conscience? Sure, they can vote themselves bread and
>>circuses. But in a real democracy, they can also change their minds and
>>throw the bakers and the circus clowns out of office. If the Hungarians
>>democratically elect a government to nationalize or socialize everything,
>>that's their democratic prerogative. The question is whether that
>>government, once the electorate decides it's had enough of nationalizing
>>and socializing everything in sight, will accept its removal from power at
>>the ballot box. If it doesn't, then it's no longer democratic. How's your
>>juggling coming along?
>>Sam Stowe
>
>Social democrats have always used the ballot box to gain power and have
>always respected the people's rejection of them.  That's probably why many
>non-social democrats use that label.  And when they do that, they just
>confuse some people about what social democracy is.  They sure managed to
>confuse you!

It's called "cognitive dissonance" and it always arises when performance
diverges radically from premise. I would have guessed that the very concept of
cognitive dissonance had been tattooed into the Hungarian soul by the period
1945-1989.


>
>>P.S. -- Ssssh. We'ah hunting wabbits...
>
>Oh, I see.  In that case, forget about John Ralston Saul.  I mean, if you're
>hooked on Elmer Fudd, you don't need any enlightenment by any Canadian
>humanist philosopher.  By the way, have you caught up on all the "Father
>Knows Best" reruns on TV?

Yes, and I'm working my way through all 375 episodes of Leave It to Beaver. You
really brought an astonishing authority to the role of Lumpy Rutherford.

>
>Joe Szalai

Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Joe, did you realize your invective gets stilted and nearly pompous
whenever I throw in those little postmodernist pop culture gibes and you try to
respond to them? It's nothing really overpowering, but I know you take a lot of
pride in being a righteous, hip dude who can really sling that koo-koo lingo.

"Nasal phlegm. Some guys may think it's
funny, Mr. Noir, but it's not."
-- The bartender in Guy Noir's office building

Dear Janka,
- not being a layer, but having had to do a lot with them -
my guts agree with you

Miklos Hoffmann

<Kedves Peter!

<At 11:39 13/02/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear friends,
>
>to a certain point I agree with the arguments of Gabor. However - I
>wish to emphasize these words of Gabor - even judges are humans and
>thereby influenced by their environment.

<Yes, but as Gabor said, sometimes the reaction can be a backlash. Thus the
<action is counter-productive.
>
>For instance:
>Last year the former colonel of the SS Priebke was accused in Italy
>for being responsible for war crimes. The highest Italian military
>court acquitted him (I think it was because of the lack of evidence).
>The indignation of the Italians brought the court to charge him in a
>new lawsuit.
>
<But that is a military court, as you note above, which operates on different
<rules than a civilian court. No civilian court in a western country brings
<charges. The charges are brought by a prosecutor, usually acting on behalf
<of the people or the state, and are opposed by the defense. It is an
<adversarial system, and the judges are impartial arbiters between the two
<sides. They are to judge the evidence (Unless there is a jury, in which case
<the jury decides on the facts of the case) and apply the law to reach a just
<decision. They are not to consider facts which are not in evidence, and I
<can assure you that public pressure at the least should be ignored.

<A further point - there is a big difference between public indignation
<expressed in the media and pressure brought to bear directly on a judge in a
<case, which, unless you can show me something to establish that the World
<Court is different than any other court I know of, is completely out of line.
>Even at the recent lawsuit we have already reached al lot by our
>letter campaign. Thanks to the public pressure the court decided that
>environmental organizations (including the Foundation for the Hungarian
> environment
>lead by Bela Liptak) can join the lawsuit as a third party.

<I doubt very much if the public pressure was the reason that the
<environmental organizations were allowed to join as a third party. It was
<more likely that they were held to have a legitimate interest in the
<proceedings which they should be allowed to express - again, in the forum of
<the court and not by pressuring the judges on the side. Believe me! It may
<make you feel good to think that you are doing something to help the case,
<but lobbying the judges on the case is more likely to be counter-productive
<than not. I recommend, since I am only a somewhat knowledgeable layperson on
<this point, that you get the opinion of a lawyer who has practiced before
<the court. Ask the lawyer representing one of those environmental
<organizations what the acceptable practice would be.
>
>Thus, I think we should continue our letter campaign.

<As I said, I disagree.

<Tisztelettel,

<Johanne/Janka

Kadar Gyoergy wrote

<        I am sorry, not to be able to leave this topics.


Consensus.


<Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>There is a fundamental problem with "No right for every-
>body to publish lies without serious consequences" :
>Us two we probably agree...but : Comrade Rakosi could have
>said that with the same words and yet meant something dif-
>ferent. I think there is no way aroung the freedom of opi-
>nion, not just correct opinion.
>
>Miklos Hoffmann
>
<        Fundamental problems are to be taken seriously. What I wrote was:
<"No right for anybody (not everybody as cited erraneously) to publish
<lies and falsifications in the public media without serious consequences."

<        L i e s  and   F a l s i f i c a t i o n s
<        not (correct or not just correct)   O p i n i o n s
<How is it possible to link my above sentence with the freedom of opinion?
<I hope there will never be a concept like "freedom of lie".

<        I cite an 1991 Webster:
<"lie" - n. 1 a false statement or action esp. one made with intent to
<deceive, 2 anything that gives or is meant to give a false impression,
<3 the charge of lying
<"opinion" - n. 1 a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive
<knowledge but on what seems true valid or probable to one's own mind;
<judgment, 2 an evaluation impression or estimation of the quality or worth
<of a person or thing, 3 the formal judgment of an expert on a matter in
<which advice is sought, 4 (law) the formal statement by a judge court
<referee etc, of the law bearing on a case

<        As to my humble interpretation the main difference between a "lie"
<and "incorrect opinion" is in the  i n t e n t. A "lie" intentionally,
<deliberately falsifies statements, actions, impressions etc., does not
<respect facts. An "incorrect opinion" is labeled by the personal
<responsibility of the person who believes, evaluates or judges it, with
<the risk, that "incorrect opinion" may turn into a "lie".

The fundamental problem is still there with the intent. Webster
is not going to be a help there. A judge might help, in some cases.

<        For example Gy. Horn publicly announced his firm opinion that the
Szokai-Tocsik affair does not have anything to do with his party, the
MSzP. This is an opinion.>


I did not and do not believe him. And you may "punish"
him with your opinion and your vote. And still, until
the Court...


<But if Erno Kiss (a chief policeman) holds his
<word and produces the document - which he publicly announced to have - in
<which the cashflow from Tocsik to Boldvay (cashier of MSzP) may clearly be
<seen, and it turns out, that Gy. Horn knew about it even before his
<mentioned announcement, then his opinion turns into a lie. And the process
<is irreversible.

<<<A lie cannot turn into incorrect opinion.>>>


If life were so straightforward...


<        Some Hungarian newspapers (even serious-looking ones like
<Nepszava, Esti Hirlap, etc.) many times felt free to write lies about the
<center and center-right political forces in Hungary since 1989. The Antall
<government followed a deliberately taken policy, not to respond to such
<lies if only persons were attacked (the Lengyel Laszlo charge attacked the
<whole government, that is why he was taken to a court). Since the
<ministers of Antall are again private persons, some of them (e.g. Boross)
<won court processes against newspapers.
<
<        In conclusion the fundamental problem with the freedom of opinion
<may be present since 1994 (it was less serious in the years 1990-1994, see
<Freedom House report in 1995) in the Hungarian media, but
<
<I myself (in contrast with the implications of the cited posting of Miklos
<Hoffmann)have not sought>


No, I think, you did not seek


< a way around or questioned the importance and significance of the freedom of
<opinion with any words and by any means.
<        Lies are different...


which does not remove the fundamental problem with
"punishing" lies and respecting the freedom of
opinion. In my opinion, in case of conflict, the
second has to have the right of way.


Miklos Hoffmann

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
   Hungarian organizations and churches from New York City and 
surroundings have requested vice president Al Gore to receive a 
delegation of Hungarian-Americans which wishes to present him the
aspects of the lawsuit at the International Court in the Hague and the
Compromise Plan. The Compromise Plan ensures the survival of the
famous Danube wetlands of Szigetkoz.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to receive the Hungarian-American
delegation. Feel free to use the attached NEW form letter. Al Gore
will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters. 
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
(e-mail: )

RE: Please receive delegation of Hungarian-Americans

Dear Mr. Vice President,

  When Slovakia illegally diverted the Danube in 1993 and thereby
endangered the Danube wetlands (mainly located in Hungary), you wrote
to professor B. Liptak about your concern for  this unique ecosystem.
The divertion of the Danube by Slovakia caused a dispute with its
neighbour Hungary. The two countries determined to let the
International Court in the Hague decide in the case. 

  It seems to be time for you to speak up again for the rescue of the
Danube wetlands, as humankind is approaching an important precedent:
The first international environmental lawsuit is coming up in a few
weeks at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

   Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just one wetland ecosystem. This lawsuit will set a precedent
for the whole planet and will decide on a much more basic question:
"Do national governments have the right to do as they please with the
ecosystem of this planet, or does humankind as a whole  have the right
to protect her natural treasures?"

   In 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have submitted a
"Memorial" to the Court which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui, has accepted. Also submitted to the ICJ was a Compromise
Plan, which would guarantee the restoration of this ancient wetland
region together with fulfilling the water supply, energy and shipping
needs of the region. 

   Dear Mr. Vice President, a delegation of Hungarian-Americans wish 
to present you the most important aspects of the lawsuit and the
Compromise Plan. Please receive this delegation and attend to its
arguments. Please help to save the Danube River.

Respectfully yours,

Your name, title, address

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
   Hungarian organizations and churches from New York City and
surroundings have requested vice president Al Gore to receive a
delegation of Hungarian-Americans which wishes to present him the
aspects of the lawsuit at the International Court in the Hague and the
Compromise Plan. The Compromise Plan ensures the survival of the
famous Danube wetlands of Szigetkoz.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to receive the Hungarian-American
delegation. Feel free to use the attached NEW form letter. Al Gore
will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters.
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
(e-mail: )

RE: Please receive delegation of Hungarian-Americans

Dear Mr. Vice President,

  When Slovakia illegally diverted the Danube in 1993 and thereby
endangered the Danube wetlands (mainly located in Hungary), you wrote
to professor B. Liptak about your concern for  this unique ecosystem.
The divertion of the Danube by Slovakia caused a dispute with its
neighbour Hungary. The two countries determined to let the
International Court in the Hague decide in the case.

  It seems to be time for you to speak up again for the rescue of the
Danube wetlands, as humankind is approaching an important precedent:
The first international environmental lawsuit is coming up in a few
weeks at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

   Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just one wetland ecosystem. This lawsuit will set a precedent
for the whole planet and will decide on a much more basic question:
"Do national governments have the right to do as they please with the
ecosystem of this planet, or does humankind as a whole  have the right
to protect her natural treasures?"

   In 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have submitted a
"Memorial" to the Court which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui, has accepted. Also submitted to the ICJ was a Compromise
Plan, which would guarantee the restoration of this ancient wetland
region together with fulfilling the water supply, energy and shipping
needs of the region.

   Dear Mr. Vice President, a delegation of Hungarian-Americans wish
to present you the most important aspects of the lawsuit and the
Compromise Plan. Please receive this delegation and attend to its
arguments. Please help to save the Danube River.

Respectfully yours,

Your name, title, address

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
   Hungarian organizations and churches from New York City and 
surroundings have requested vice president Al Gore to receive a 
delegation of Hungarian-Americans which wishes to present him the
aspects of the lawsuit at the International Court in the Hague and the
Compromise Plan. The Compromise Plan ensures the survival of the
famous Danube wetlands of Szigetkoz.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to receive the Hungarian-American
delegation. Feel free to use the attached NEW form letter. Al Gore
will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters. 
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
(e-mail: )

RE: Please receive delegation of Hungarian-Americans

Dear Mr. Vice President,

  When Slovakia illegally diverted the Danube in 1993 and thereby
endangered the Danube wetlands (mainly located in Hungary), you wrote
to professor B. Liptak about your concern for  this unique ecosystem.
The divertion of the Danube by Slovakia caused a dispute with its
neighbour Hungary. The two countries determined to let the
International Court in the Hague decide in the case. 

  It seems to be time for you to speak up again for the rescue of the
Danube wetlands, as humankind is approaching an important precedent:
The first international environmental lawsuit is coming up in a few
weeks at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

   Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just one wetland ecosystem. This lawsuit will set a precedent
for the whole planet and will decide on a much more basic question:
"Do national governments have the right to do as they please with the
ecosystem of this planet, or does humankind as a whole  have the right
to protect her natural treasures?"

   In 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have submitted a
"Memorial" to the Court which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui, has accepted. Also submitted to the ICJ was a Compromise
Plan, which would guarantee the restoration of this ancient wetland
region together with fulfilling the water supply, energy and shipping
needs of the region. 

   Dear Mr. Vice President, a delegation of Hungarian-Americans wish 
to present you the most important aspects of the lawsuit and the
Compromise Plan. Please receive this delegation and attend to its
arguments. Please help to save the Danube River.

Respectfully yours,

Your name, title, address

Kadar Gyoergy wrote :

<        3) I mentioned "conservative morality" and not "moralism". The
<distinction in my mind is important. I mean by that much more a practical
<style, a norm of behavior, than a doctrine. The word "moralism" (as any
<"-ism") involves an ideological doctrine. That is not, what I mean...

<I noticed that. But did anybody mention moralism? I must have missed it.

<Miklos Hoffmann

Indeed, I missed me.
Miklos

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
   Hungarian organizations and churches from New York City and 
surroundings have requested vice president Al Gore to receive a 
delegation of Hungarian-Americans which wishes to present him the
aspects of the lawsuit at the International Court in the Hague and the
Compromise Plan. The Compromise Plan ensures the survival of the
famous Danube wetlands of Szigetkoz.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to receive the Hungarian-American
delegation. Feel free to use the attached NEW form letter. Al Gore
will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters. 
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
(e-mail: )

RE: Please receive delegation of Hungarian-Americans

Dear Mr. Vice President,

  When Slovakia illegally diverted the Danube in 1993 and thereby
endangered the Danube wetlands (mainly located in Hungary), you wrote
to professor B. Liptak about your concern for  this unique ecosystem.
The divertion of the Danube by Slovakia caused a dispute with its
neighbour Hungary. The two countries determined to let the
International Court in the Hague decide in the case. 

  It seems to be time for you to speak up again for the rescue of the
Danube wetlands, as humankind is approaching an important precedent:
The first international environmental lawsuit is coming up in a few
weeks at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

   Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just one wetland ecosystem. This lawsuit will set a precedent
for the whole planet and will decide on a much more basic question:
"Do national governments have the right to do as they please with the
ecosystem of this planet, or does humankind as a whole  have the right
to protect her natural treasures?"

   In 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have submitted a
"Memorial" to the Court which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui, has accepted. Also submitted to the ICJ was a Compromise
Plan, which would guarantee the restoration of this ancient wetland
region together with fulfilling the water supply, energy and shipping
needs of the region. 

   Dear Mr. Vice President, a delegation of Hungarian-Americans wish 
to present you the most important aspects of the lawsuit and the
Compromise Plan. Please receive this delegation and attend to its
arguments. Please help to save the Danube River.

Respectfully yours,

Your name, title, address

Friends,

   Since I have sent  out the original  message about local phone
companies requesting permission from the FCC to collect surcharge
on internet usage,  I feel it necessary  to send you this update.
Some of you have  asked me for more  information about the issue,
but I didn't have any until now. I hope this will help.
   Regards,
             Amos J. Danube
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
--- Forwarded mail from Nancy Bolt >

Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:37:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Nancy Bolt >
Subject: FW: Don't Flame FCC!!! re internet surcharge (fwd)

The information below is in line with the information I have also
discovered in looking into this issue.  All of my dealings with the FCC
have been above board and positive.

Nancy
-----

Here is a follow up to the e-mail forwarded yesterday.  I am uncertain whether
the first e-mail was a hoax; however, this on is informative... I hope it is
also accurate.

The information below is excerpted from today's (2/13) edition of the Internet
Tourbus list (information on Tourbus at end of message).  I'm forwarding this
to BUSLIB-L and SOLOLIB-L because yesterday I got a message about this issue
from one of these two lists; unfortunately, I've since deleted it, so don't
remember which.  However, the information is certainly MOST valuable for
subscribers to BOTH lists!  Please forward as you think is appropriate, but be
sure to credit Tourbus!  Thanks!

Jo Pearson


FEAR AND LOATHING AT THE FCC
----------------------------

Over the past couple of weeks, you may have received e-mail letters telling
you that

     Many local telephone companies have filed a proposal with the FCC
     [The United States' Federal Communications Commission] to impose
     per minute charges for Internet service.  They contend that use
     of Internet has or will hinder the operation of the telephone
     network.

At first, I thought that this was simply a new version of the old "modem
tax" hoax (http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_83.html#SEC84) that has
been floating around the Net since *1987*.   After all, the current FCC
story has all of the markings of a classic urban legend:

     1. It uses official-looking language;

     2. It mentions a government agency or an organization with
        which everyone is familiar;

     3. It contains a plea for you to take some sort of immediate
        action; and

     4. It requests that you forward the warning letter to as many
        people as possible.

Besides, according to an article that appeared in this morning's Edupage,

     ONLINE COMPANIES ASK TELCOS, "WHERE'S THE BEEF?"
     Tired of telephone companies' complaints that Internet usage is
     overwhelming their network capacity, the Internet Access
     Coalition has released findings contending that Net usage is, in
     reality, a bonanza for the Bells.  The study found that local
     carriers received a total of $1.4 billion in 1995 in revenues
     resulting from the installation of second lines in homes, while
     spending only $245 million to beef up their networks for the
     additional usage.  A Bell Atlantic spokesman says the real
     problem is that the telcos have no idea when a line will be used
     for data rather than voice, and thus tied up longer.  Both sides
     agree that the ultimate solution is higher capacity networks.
     (Business Week 17 Feb 97)

Well, out of curiosity -- and out of a deep-felt desire to avoid studying
for the two major economics tests that I have next week -- your fearless
bus driver decided to call the FCC in Washington to see if anyone there was
willing to talk about this rather explosive issue.  Unfortunately, I soon
discovered that the FCC only has one employee, she is a secretary, and her
job is to transfer all incoming telephone calls into voice mail hell.  :)

Actually, I talked to some nice people at the FCC who faxed me a 10 page
explanation of what's *really* going on.  Unfortunately, the 10 page
explanation was written in "FCC-ese," so I am going to have to translate
their explanation into English for you (and I can assure you that, since I
know *NOTHING* about telephony, my translation will probably contain a few
inaccuracies;  if it does, please let me know).

First, some local telephone companies have indeed asked the FCC to allow
them to assess a per minute access charge on the telephone lines used by
Internet Service Providers.  Local telephone companies currently charge
long-distance carriers (like AT&T and MCI) an interstate access charge for
the long-distance traffic that travels over their local lines, and the
local telephone companies would like to see this charge extended to include
the high-speed lines that your local Internet Service Provider uses to
access the Internet.

In December, the FCC rejected the telephone companies' request and
tentatively concluded "that the existing pricing structure for information
services should remain in place."  In other words, the FCC has tentatively
concluded that Internet service providers should *NOT* be subject to the
interstate access charges that local telephone companies currently assess
on long-distance carriers.

The FCC now seeks the public's comments on this conclusion.

Unfortunately, the "warning" letter that is currently circulating around
the Internet gives the impression that some sort of sinister operation is
afoot here, that the FCC and the telephone companies are trying to sneak
this proposal through without anyone noticing, and that it is up to each
and every one of us to stop the evil FCC.

What garbage.  In fact, the FCC has, at least tentatively, REJECTED the
telephone companies' proposal.  The FCC is now simply asking you if you
agree or disagree with their decision.

The most disappointing aspect of this whole situation is that because of
the misinformation that has been distributed across the Internet over the
past couple of weeks, the FCC has received 100,000+ e-mail letters, most of
which flame them for making a decision that EVERYONE AGREES WITH!  Hands
down, the flaming of the FCC is one of the Internet's most shameful acts
ever.

I also discovered another thing about the FCC that increased my respect for
their organization one-hundred-fold.  Part of the 10 page explanation that
the FCC sent me states that their "existing rules have been designed for
traditional circuit-switched voice networks, and thus may hinder the
development of emerging packet-switched data networks."  Because of this,
the FCC is also seeking the public's comments on the implications of the
Internet and its usage through the public switched telephone network.

Folks, *ANY* government agency that stops and says 'hey, we can ALWAYS use
some more information so that we are better prepared for whatever happens
in the future' has earned my respect and admiration.

By the way, most of the information that I have shared with you today can
be found on the FCC's "ISP" homepage at

     http://www.fcc.gov/isp.html

If you would like to send your comments to the folks at the FCC (the
deadline for comments about their decision not to impose interstate access
changes on Internet service providers is Friday, February 14th), make sure
that you check the FCC's ISP Web page first.  At the bottom of this page
are some pretty specific instructions on what you need to put in the
subject line of you e-mail letter before you submit it to the FCC.

Personally, I'm going to leave the poor folks at the FCC alone for a while.
They seem to be doing a great job in the face of unnecessary (and
misinformed) opposition.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------------
--- End of forwarded mail from Nancy Bolt >

>I am reading a book which received the "1995 outstanding regional history"
award called
>the "The Immigrant Coccoon" subtitled "Central Europeans in the Cambrideg
Ohio Coalfields." by Lorie Porter a Professor of History at Muskingum
College in New Concord Ohio. The flyleaf also says that she is a graduate of
Notre Dame College, Boston College and the University of New Mexico where
she received a PhD in Medieval History.
>
>Just a few excerpts:
>
>"The "nationalities" problem has been the scourge on central Europe since
the Huns barrelled into the Slavs in the fourth century,scattering them
across the landscape and
>dividing them into Northeren and Southern Slavs."
>
>"Although Latin remained the official language until World War I, the
Hapsburg monarchy
>sought to impose German as the common language of the Empire by introducing
it into schools in 1784- at once arousing vehement Magyar resistance."
>
>"The first census of the Empire revealed the depth of the linguistic
schism: one third of the population spoke Magyar and thirty percent spoke
Slovak, but most of the Slovak was spoken within Magyar designated lands."
[Source given as Louisee B. Hammer "Slovak regional dialects" in United
Lutheran, Sept-Oct, 1991]
>
>"The memory of the Slovak state thus rescued began with the infiltration of
Slovaks into the region as early as the sixth century when their
semi-legendary state "Samo's Kingdom" (623-659) rose against the Avars."
[Gee I thought it was the Huns from the earlier quote. It is also a strange
time period for sixth century definition. Oh well,
>if Billy Clinton does not know when the 21st century starts, why should
eminent "historians" be expected to be better.]
>
>"To Slovaks it is a bitter irony that the Hungarian leader in 1848 was an
ethnic Slovak. Louis Kossuth was born of peasant stock in Kosuty, near St
martin in the heart of Slovakia; his uncle was a famous Slovak poet. But
like the earlier "Polish Patriot" Taddeus Kosciusko, Kossuth assimilated and
becaem more Magyar than Magyars, castigating his own people in favor of
"Nordic Aryans" who were "natural" subjugators of peoples. Kossuth's
"arrogant acts toward other nations" provoked Stur and the Croat general
Joseph Jellachic into forming a combined army to challange Kossuth"
>
>"Kossuth reacted with fierce repression into Slovak lands, "Kossuth
gallows" sprouted up alongside the roadside Marian shrines. Slovaks ubbed
them "trees of liberty". Bouyed by widesparead resistance, the Austrian
general Prince Alfred Ferdinand Windishgratz marched at th ehead of a
multinational army into Hungary and by January had defeated Kossuth's army.
But the victorious army disintegrated over predictable quarrels between
Czechs and Sovaks, leaving the final blow against the Magyars to be struck
by the Russians."
>
>"Between 1896 and 1908, 560 Slovaks were convicetd of speaking Slovak in
public. Family names and place names were changed at the will of Budapest.
All state and local officials were ordered to accept Magyar names... Most
fearful of all, the Cultural Society of Upper Hungary forced the removal of
children into Magyar hands. Beginning in 1874 some children were kidnapped,
later 400 more were seized. In 1887, 190 were taken; in 1889, 86 and in
1892, 174 from Nitra county. The transportations were done with collusion of
local officials, and it thoroughly alienated and outraged the peasantry."
[The source given is Jednota Furdak 1984, and further states that the
transportation of childeren were to Estonia, Slovenia and Lithuania]
>
>There is also a "statistics" given in regard to the literacy of suposed
immigrants 14 years or older in June 30, 1900, which has some interesting
numbers. I am only quoting excerpts in percents.
>
>Ruthenian   49.0
>Croatian and Slovenian  38.3
>Bulgarian, Serbian and Montenegrin 37.4
>Dalmatian, Bosnian and Herzegovinian 35
>Polish 31.6
>Russian 28.8
>Slovak 28.0
>Roumanian 25.1
>Magyar  17.5
>Bohemian and Moravian 3.2
>
>"Paul Kushner marvelled at the way Slovaks, Lithuanians and others could
understand one another - it was, of course, the Magyar "loan words" that
Magyarization had imposed on everyone, and the "transport" of Slovak
children and their language to the new "homes"
>in Lithuania and Serbia. Americans called the foreigners "hunkies" and it
hurt, but Magyars called Slovaks "tot" - "less than animal", "scum" and
taunted the only good Slovak is a dead Slovak1" Children playing on the coal
heap at Black Top learned rapidly that old worls feuds had safely migrated too.
"
>
>"300,000 Lithuanians immigrated between 1860 and 1915. They were strongly
influenced by Polish occupation."
>
>I guess that is enough. Of course the book will be quoted by successive
gnerations of historians as a source. And in many minds, the propagande will
eventually transfer itself into truth. I am sorry, but I rather stay accused
of too relying on the original documents and giving them far more attention
than these derived "histories".
>
>Of course, Ms Porter, in most cases, has source references, which are
equally propagrandized and often of questionable nature.
>
>Regards,Jeliko
>non-historian
>

At 01:48 PM 2/14/97 -0500, Jeliko wrote:

>>the "The Immigrant Coccoon" subtitled "Central Europeans in the Cambrideg
>Ohio Coalfields." by Lorie Porter a Professor of History at Muskingum
>College in New Concord Ohio. The flyleaf also says that she is a graduate of
>Notre Dame College, Boston College and the University of New Mexico where
>she received a PhD in Medieval History.

        Well, there are PhDs and PhDs. Lorie Porter's obviously doesn't mean
much.

>>I guess that is enough. Of course the book will be quoted by successive
>gnerations of historians as a source. And in many minds, the propagande will
>eventually transfer itself into truth. I am sorry, but I rather stay accused
>of too relying on the original documents and giving them far more attention
>than these derived "histories".

        And here is where you are dead wrong: when you put all "historians"
under one big umbrella. Any decent historian who happened to open this book
would come to the conclusion in ten minutes or less that this is a piece of
garbage and put it back on the shelf of his college library. (That is, if
his college librarians were stupid enough to buy the book in the first
place!) That is your problem, Jeliko, you put Peter Hanak, Istvan Dioszegi,
Istvan Deak, Hugh, Martin, Liviu, Louis and myself (just to mention a few
historians on this list) together with Lorie Porter. Well, there is a world
of difference between the first group and Lorie Porter. Just because you
happen to find a piece of garbage by Lorie Porter who masquerade as a
historian from a community college it doesn't mean that you are not supposed
to take some historians' work very seriously. And you tend to disregard all
of them and try to rely on "your own research." Well, you have to trust some
historians because not even historians have the time, the skill, and the
opportunity to do "original research" in every facets of history. If I want
to learn something about medieval Spanish history, for example, I have to
consult secondary srouces. I just have to be careful not to consult the
Lorie Porter of Spanish medieval history as one of those sources. But a
trained historian or any intelligent person with a modicum of knowledge of
European history in general should be able to avoid the Lorie Porter of
Spanish medieval history. A quick glance of any secondary source should give
you a clue. Just as a glance of this particular piece of garbage will tell
the reader (be that a Slovak, a Hungarian, or a Pole) that the lady knows
nothing about her subject. And, by the way, you could pick absolutely
hundreds of books of similar ilk by Hungarian or Slovak authors in English.

        Eva Balogh

On the topic of lobbying the justices of the World Court, Peter Orban
writes as follows:

> to a certain point I agree with the arguments of Gabor. However - I
> wish to emphasize these words of Gabor - even judges are humans and
> thereby influenced by their environment.
>
> For instance:
> Last year the former colonel of the SS Priebke was accused in Italy
> for being responsible for war crimes. The highest Italian military
> court acquitted him (I think it was because of the lack of evidence).
> The indignation of the Italians brought the court to charge him in a
> new lawsuit.

There is a world of difference between protesting a miscarriage of
justice *after* the verdict, and attempting to use extra-judicial means
to influence a matter currently sub judice.  The former is the right --
indeed duty -- of any free citizen in a democracy.  The latter is an
act of contempt toward the independent judiciary -- the ultimate
guarantor of the rights we all enjoy.  An organization engaging in such
tactics is heading straight toward a public relations disaster.

I am sure the President of the World Court, like most highly visible
public figures, has an able secretarial staff whose job it is to
route inappriopriate correspondence of this sort to the circular file.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:30:00 +1100, Denes BOGSANYI
> wrote:

>Dear Mr Kozma,
>I have been following the newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and in the last =
>few days I noticed that Mr Lippai has been particularly active there. I =
>must admit that his particular style does not agree with me. What more =
>can you expect of one who claims to be from Angyalfold.
>Regards
>D=E9nes
I must disagree with you. I am left-leaning enough to say his social
origin is not important. We should try to judge people for what they
are, not where they came from. Tolerance, understanding, a thirst for
knowledge and kindness are not determined by geograpghic or social
boundaries, but reading, listening and keeping an open mind.
I am pleased that he has switched to Hungarian and thus fails to to be
heard by the many 2-3rd generation Hungarians, who are proud of their
heritage an lurk and post here to absorb more knowledge of their
roots. They would surely be disillusioned with the venom, hatred and
devisiveness of this man. He seems to think Hungarian immigration to
the USA and Canada started on the day he fled from the reprecautions
of his talking out of both sides of his mouth. (Accepting the
communist privileges, then turning on his mentors.) Surely great
idealism! A role model if I ever saw one;-(

Happy Valentines Day to All!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
WARNING TO MR. LIPPAI!
I do not wish to receive any private correspondence from you.
If you disregard this warning I'll consider your correspondence a
harrasment. Further I'll repost it complete with headers and dates in
this group and forward copies to the authorities.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

Szeressuk egymast gyerekek..........

Eva
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Eva Kende B.Sc. Author of Eva's Hungarian Kitchen
look for it at: http://kinga.com/cook.html
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Lectoris Salutem!

        I am sorry, not to be able to leave this topics.

Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>There is a fundamental problem with "No right for every-
>body to publish lies without serious consequences" :
>Us two we probably agree...but : Comrade Rakosi could have
>said that with the same words and yet meant something dif-
>ferent. I think there is no way aroung the freedom of opi-
>nion, not just correct opinion.
>
>Miklos Hoffmann
>
        Fundamental problems are to be taken seriously. What I wrote was:
"No right for anybody (not everybody as cited erraneously) to publish
lies and falsifications in the public media without serious consequences."

        L i e s  and   F a l s i f i c a t i o n s
        not (correct or not just correct)   O p i n i o n s
How is it possible to link my above sentence with the freedom of opinion?
I hope there will never be a concept like "freedom of lie".

        I cite an 1991 Webster:
"lie" - n. 1 a false statement or action esp. one made with intent to
deceive, 2 anything that gives or is meant to give a false impression,
3 the charge of lying
"opinion" - n. 1 a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive
knowledge but on what seems true valid or probable to one's own mind;
judgment, 2 an evaluation impression or estimation of the quality or worth
of a person or thing, 3 the formal judgment of an expert on a matter in
which advice is sought, 4 (law) the formal statement by a judge court
referee etc, of the law bearing on a case

        As to my humble interpretation the main difference between a "lie"
and "incorrect opinion" is in the  i n t e n t. A "lie" intentionally,
deliberately falsifies statements, actions, impressions etc., does not
respect facts. An "incorrect opinion" is labeled by the personal
responsibility of the person who believes, evaluates or judges it, with
the risk, that "incorrect opinion" may turn into a "lie".
        For example Gy. Horn publicly announced his firm opinion that the
Szokai-Tocsik affair does not have anything to do with his party, the
MSzP. This is an opinion. But if Erno Kiss (a chief policeman) holds his
word and produces the document - which he publicly announced to have - in
which the cashflow from Tocsik to Boldvay (cashier of MSzP) may clearly be
seen, and it turns out, that Gy. Horn knew about it even before his
mentioned announcement, then his opinion turns into a lie. And the process
is irreversible. A lie cannot turn into incorrect opinion.
        A hir szent, a velemeny szabad.

        Some Hungarian newspapers (even serious-looking ones like
Nepszava, Esti Hirlap, etc.) many times felt free to write lies about the
center and center-right political forces in Hungary since 1989. The Antall
government followed a deliberately taken policy, not to respond to such
lies if only persons were attacked (the Lengyel Laszlo charge attacked the
whole government, that is why he was taken to a court). Since the
ministers of Antall are again private persons, some of them (e.g. Boross)
won court processes against newspapers.

        In conclusion the fundamental problem with the freedom of opinion
may be present since 1994 (it was less serious in the years 1990-1994, see
Freedom House report in 1995) in the Hungarian media, but I myself (in
contrast with the implications of the cited posting of Miklos Hoffmann)
have not sought a way around or questioned the importance and significance
of the freedom of opinion with any words and by any means.
        Lies are different...

        Istenvelunk...                  kadargyorgy