Szántóföldet keresek megvételre. Ajánlatot kérek.
T.K.Avar, Semmelweiss u 5/ Ie,8380 Héviz,
 email: 

 wrote:





>I challenge everyone to show ANYBODY who has been a more devoted,
>and/or more verbal supporter on Internet of Prime Minister Gyula Horn's
>regime than Eva Balogh!

	Here is one of my admiring pieces on Gyula Horn. See attachment. But
this was not the first--it just happened to be handy.

	Eva Balogh

In article >, td > wrote:

> In article 
> Joe Pannon > wrote :
> 
> >Maybe I need to post something "controversial" again, eh?
> >I'll bet that they will join that thread!
> 
> like which goal of the romanian team at euro 96 was
> the most beautiful one...
> 
> really, i don't think you can get more controversial
> than with "Just how bad was communism morally?"
> 
> it's just that the ones that give a damn have spent
> their last 50 years talking about it. it's kinda tiresome,
> isn't it ?

So nobody under lets say 30 really gives a damn do they? I'm sorry but 
at 27 I give a damn and I doubt that I'm the only one on the planet. 
Come off it. The idea that only old fogeys care about communism, history, 
or justice is more than a bit patronizing, it's downright insulting. 

It may be a Romanian reality that politicians are not treated seriously 
until they hit 40 but that doesn't mean that people are excused from 
thinking about it or expressing their support for what is right, moral, 
and just.

I like talking about football as much as the next guy but if you don't 
care about communism or morality, the least you can do is keep the threads
separate. If you find it tiresome, you can delete the messages or even 
kill all threads with "moral" in their subject lines. That should leave 
your worldview blessedly uncontaminated with any ideas of right or wrong.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 22:15:32 -0600, "Crispín Escalante G."
> wrote:

>Please E-mail me translation 3 words
>Thank you

ninakupenda kabisa!

In article >, Bill Halverson
> wrote:

>  wrote:
> > 
> > T.M.Lutas > wrote:
> > >
> >>SNIP<
> > >Perhaps setting the moral foundation doesn't trip some of our own
> > >"communism isn't so bad" crowd. It's when you go beyond theory to practica
l
> > >measures that people seem to get hysterical. Is there a practical limit
> > >on hypocrisy? I've yet to see any evidence.
> > 
> 
> Like I said ...  I don't know of any political system that was able to be use
d
> as a front for the deliberate stravation/extermination of _at least_  30
> million citizens of its own countries.

I think that you are being incredibly conservative with the figure of 30 
million. However, this begs the question of what is the proper, moral, and 
just response to such facts? What are we to do with those who, knowing, or 
even participating in the slaughter, ask today for not forgiveness but 
amnesia and a total lack of consequences?

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

Georg Fischer > wrote:

>Joska, ha a sorok mogott azt akartad sejtetni, hogy Spiro Zsido nemzeti
>segu, vagy israeli nemzetisegu, akkor a hozzaallasod helytelen 1
>Ti. Zsido nemzetiseg NINCS

Kedves Gyuri Ba', azt hiszem felreertetted a cikkemet.  Ugyanis nem en,
hanem Kocsis T. emlitette a Spiro nemzetiseget.  En csak ideztem ot,
mielott visszadobtam neki a labdat azzal a tippelesi javaslattal.
Egyebkent egyetertek, hogy a nemzetiseg fogalom hasznalata nem volt
helyes.  Gondolom a Tamas szarmazasi hatteret ertett alatta.

Jo latni ujra az Interneten.  Mar azt hittem valami baj tortent a
vakaciod alatt, amit egy honap hosszunak jelentettel be.
Idokozben itt sok minden tortent, s talan eszrevetted, hogy mar vagy
hetedfoku anti-szemitava avanzsaltam. ;-) 

Udv,
Pannon J.

In article >,
    () wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>ez jo voot pelionisz ba'... haat akor indoljunk.... a nepies 
iranba, na!
>>csak rosdasan, rosdasan!
>
>S ezt pont olyan valaki irja, aki elso jelentkezesekor csak 
angolul mert
>irni, mivel sajat bevallasa szerint a magyar mar nem ment jol 
neki.
>
>Hat ez is jo, nem mondom!
>
>Pannon J.

Azert szerintem szerenyen angolul irni kb. ezerszer 
tisztessegesebb mint ilyen hulyen kerekbetorni a magyart ami 
egyben igen rosszizu gunyolodasnak is veheto a nepies beszed 
felett.

Szoval egyetertek: ez tenyleg jobb.

(Ettol fuggetlenul termeszetesen mindent lehet addig csavarni 
amig P. A. lesz itt az egyetlen "standard" csakhogy akkor mind 
mehetunk a dilihazba vagy egyszeruen valami mas NG-ba.)


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

> wrote:

>ez jo voot pelionisz ba'... haat akor indoljunk.... a nepies iranba, na!
>csak rosdasan, rosdasan!

S ezt pont olyan valaki irja, aki elso jelentkezesekor csak angolul mert
irni, mivel sajat bevallasa szerint a magyar mar nem ment jol neki.

Hat ez is jo, nem mondom!

Pannon J.

 (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:
>In article >,
>   Ivan Marinov > wrote:
>>Peter Szaszvari wrote:
>>> On the other hand, it is nice that you Christians are so
>>> concerned, but would you be so kind to kep your concerns for
>>> yourselves?
>>
>>We want to make the world a better place for life. 
>>
>>Ivan
>
>Please make it only on your side and only for Christians. For me 
>it could not improve much. Consider me as a "living" thing. I 
>tell you clear and loud: Thank you, you don't have to worry about 
>me. 
>(Our dfinition of "better" may differ...)

There is only one valid definition of "good". But you're free to exercise 
your free will and to choose a wrong definition. It's sad, but we don't 
have right to oppose your free will.    :-((((

Ivan

In article >,
 > wrote:
| I find it interesting that Eva Balogh, as her answer, clipped
| verbatim (though in an encoded version, not to reveal too much)
| her argument that she used when the exact same thread ran its
| course in the -that far- unmoderated list of "Hungary".
| 
| It is very fortunate that she has just given us the testimony that she
| is absolutely aware that Mr. Horn, as a butcher of Freedomfighters,
| is the "lowest of the low" - and she STILL forgave that man for his
| crimes 

As did Erzsebet Nagy - Imre Nagy's daughter.

One thing to note that puts Andras Szucs's postings in
perspective is that he is not interested in debate,
conversation. He is ONLY interested in airing his views
again and again. For the nth time he has started a new
thread and produced another article with no other purpose or
subject then to attack Eva Balogh. As soon as there is a
response to her posting she abandons the thread and start a
new one, as he has done several times, just like those
travel agencies that spring up in a location, collect
payments for advertised trips, and close down as soon as
their fraud is discovered, only to reappear in a different
location. 
Similarly to these criminal enterprises Andras Szucs is
abusing this system unfairly for his benefit to smear Eva
Balogh's name without the intent of addressing criticism 
against his distortions, which of course is an ethical
minimum when viciously attacking one's credibility.
Andras Szucs of course has the right to open threads at his
will, and to fail to address responses and reactions to his
attacks against someone's credibility, but he must realize
that doing so says much about him, and reduces his
credibility severely.

Istvan

In article >,
   Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski > wrote:
>There is only one valid definition of "good". 

This is too simple to my taste. I just don't believe it. 
To me good is always good for somebody or something and there 
used to be somebody else to whom the same thing is just plain 
bad.
I don't think that a good dinner for the lion is just as good for 
the one who is getting eaten.

>But you're free to exercise 
>your free will and to choose a wrong definition. It's sad, but 
we don't 
>have right to oppose your free will.    :-((((
>
>Ivan
>
I am really glad to hear this. I wish all the Christians would 
share this opinion.

SzP.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >,
 > wrote:
>In article >,
 wrote:
.......
>> Tetyetek be a masinaba ahogy van aszt kesz.Csakakor szojatok ha
>> elszalad a lu.Tietek a gyeplo ha balag.
>
>et citera, et cimbalom
>
>ha ha ha ha ha
>ROTF!!!
>
>ez jo voot pelionisz ba'... haat akor indoljunk.... a nepies iranba, na!
>csak rosdasan, rosdasan!
>
>heh
>ef

La'tom nagyon o:szi a fene kento:ket, nem lehetne inka'bb ka'rtya'zni?
GK (Vagy Pisze Matyi? Fene tuggya.)

Andras,

They are coming to get you, comming to get you,

to take you away, ha-hoo, ho-hoo!

Hurry up and hide under your bed and

keep your mouth shut. If they find you they will

put you in a jacket, you know, the straight kind......

In article >,
    (Odor Tibor) wrote:
>Dear Eva S. Balogh,
>
>I enjoyed your last post very much! This took 
>the most sense among your posts you have ever written on the 
Net!
>
>Congratulations!
>
>All the best,
>
>Your true friend,
>
>Tibor O'dor

Dear Eva,

Du you really want to be friends with this guy? :)
In fact it can be really insulting to declare somebody a friend. 
(see above)

Best regards, SzP.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

I find it interesting that Eva Balogh, as her answer, clipped
verbatim (though in an encoded version, not to reveal too much)
her argument that she used when the exact same thread ran its
course in the -that far- unmoderated list of "Hungary".

It is very fortunate that she has just given us the testimony that she
is absolutely aware that Mr. Horn, as a butcher of Freedomfighters,
is the "lowest of the low" - and she STILL forgave that man for his
crimes and she STILL supported his regime more than anyone one knows.

Has she not confessed that she was aware of Prime Minister Mr. Horn's
murderous past, she could claim some excuse that SHE DID NOT KNOW how
filthy that man is, WHOSE REGIME MS EVA BALOGH SUPPORTED NONETHELESS,
MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE, ON INTERNET, FROM THE MOMENT MR. GYULA HORN
ASSUMED THE OFFICE OF PRIME MINISTRY IN 1994.

Since Eva Balogh has just opened the roof by quoting full text of
her posting in the "Hungary-list", let me helicopter in with my
response in kind. Please find below what was my answer to
her article in Hungary. The article, hopefully, makes an opinion
sufficiently clear that those who are fully aware (in fact were
alive wittnesses of the times of the crime!) of proofs that the Prime
Minister is (an admitted) former member of workers' militia
(butchers of Freedomfighters in 1956, thus "the lowest of the low")
AND STILL SUPPORT HIS REGIME, SUPPORT THE RULE OF A MEMBER OF A MURDERER
GANG IN THE HIGHEST EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THEIR HOMELAND, cannot be
but rejected, as harshly as their arrogance needs to be told off.


> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Lower than the lower than the lowest of the low ( 113 sor )
> Idopont: Tue Apr 30 03:20:10 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #654
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I was astonished that readers of this list were surprised to find
out that the "lowest of the low" (as Eva Balogh called Horn)
is Prime Minister in Hungary today. Now that readers learnt,
Gyula Horn once betrayed Freedomfighters and the whole Nation
by his siding with foreign oppressors (the Soviets, at that time),
readers probably wonder what sort of people, and what kind of
*parties* support this criminal communist?  (Hint, hint: those
who are lower than the "lowest of the low"). Since Horn's elder
brother was killed by Freedomfighters (who fought Soviet
communists and traitors in a life or death struggle of a World-
admired armed revolution) we know that the head of the leading
party of the coalition is not only a traitor, but a traumatized criminal
with a vengeance against agains decent Hungarians, who despised
the Horn Brothers for their treason.

A party (MSZP) headed by such a monster could never hang on to
power alone, although (technically) they had 54% of representatives.
Because of antidemoratic features of communist-installed "new"
system, however, their actual support amounted to only about one
third (nowhere near majority!) of those who actually voted -- and
we know that many tens of thousands of Hungarian citizens were
discriminated against and deprived of their rights to vote altogether!
Just as Soviets could not have consolidated their bloody oppression
after the 56 revolution without the services of the "lowest of the low"
 (traitors), Mr. Horn would not be Prime Minister today, if no party
 joined this gang of murderer traitors -- for their share in the loot.

Yes, there was, again, a lower than "lowest of the low" in Hungary,
a scum who did exactly that. The Party SZDSZ (liberals) shelved
their decency (if they had any) and said "never mind that he has double
reason for betraying Hungarian interests!" and  joined Horn's Party
for a coalition in what ensued (aptly labelled by the Western paper of
La Repubblica of Italy as "Kleptocracy" or "The robbery of the
Century"). Of course, again, they served together foreign oppressors,
but this time not the Eastern tanks of the Soviets, but Western banks
of IMF & WB. No loyalty to Hungarian interests whatsoever.

If you wonder what kind of man leads a party that would join
a traitor, a despised former member of murderer communist
thugs, here comes Ivan Peto -- head of SZDSZ, son of a
lieutenant general of the AVH (Hungarian "KGB"). Well, let's
not dwell on who his father was, I hear. All right, let's talk
about -- his mother. There is a dark story there, as well. In fact,
not one, but two. Ivan Peto was raised by a *stepmother*, who
was not in the AVH --but in the Police (comment omitted here).
However, it comes from eyewittness that Ivan Peto's entry to the
files of Hungarian Parliament stated as his real mother's maiden
name "Eva Kallai". For those who don't know, Eva Kallai was
the Officer of the Budapest Central Committee of Communist
Party, who in 1956 jumped out of the window (to her death,
after an agony of a several weeks) in her mortal fear of those
storming the Party HQ.

There has not been any investigation at all if Ivan Peto's
real mother had indeed been Eva Kallai, as it was entered to
the files, or not, as he told a confused story later.

Why is this relevant at all, and why would he (be advised)
to deny his parents' identity? (Remark: Ivan Peto denied even
his father's AVH membership, in court, hoping that all files
had been destroyed, but written document was found to
prove in court his father's membership and rank). Mrs. Keri
(his accuser) lost the lawsuit only because she claimed that
*both* of Peto's parents were AVH officers, and stepmother
was technically *not* in AVH -- but in the Police. (Eva Kallai
was -technically- in neither; as she was a high ranking officer
of the Central Committe of the Communist Party, the boss of
*both* AVH and Police).

Hungarians know that head of one party of the coalition
has vengeance against the decent part of the population since
his brother was killed as a communist traitor. They are entitled
to know from a proper investigation if the head of the other party
in the coalition has also a vengeance against the decent part
of the population; since his mother jumped to her death for fear
of the anticommunist majority of Hungarians. If only half the
story is lower than "the lowest of the low" -- what makes the
two combined???

Do you think there cannot be "lower than the lowest of the
low"?

Well... try "lower than the lower than the lowest of the low":

Try a SUPPORTER of such Coalition of Filth, and/or supporter of
the Party which enabled Horn to deliver on his vengeance.
Look at someone, who works so hard on generating credence and
fabricating ideology for them *from the West*, why they should
give up their souverenity to make their being raped more convenient
for the foreign perpetrators. Why should they sell their factories for $1!
Why their university and health service system should be driven into
the ground, a la Burundi. All this disseminated by the Internet as the
elegant message of Yale. Representing Western "Hungarians" though
she has no loyalty to Hungary or Hungarians whatsoever.

Try someone who supports those who betrayed the Nation, and
in the process herself betrays, by denial, (in her outrageous lie!) those
very Freedomfighters she all in her life was yearning to be identified
with!  Try someone who allows herself to be defended by an
"arbiter" of the question if we call 1956 "Szabadsagharc" in Hungarian,
though the idiot has never set foot in Hungary, nor does he speak
Hungarian.

The English language is a bit clumsy at times. We saw in earlier examples,
nothing beats the original Hungarian expression ("semmi sem ragadt
rajuk"). How could someone translate adequately to the incomparable
Hungarian language, with a marvalleous sense of comprehension:

Who is who betrays her own  -  for alien interests ?
"Lower than the lower than the lowest of the low"?

Shorter and better:
"Szar ember".

> =======================================================

In article >,
 (George Antony Ph 93818) wrote:

>  (T.M.Lutas) writes:
> 
> >This is one of the reasons that UDMR makes me nervous. If there were an 
> >easy way to separate out the left-wing hungarians in transylvania from the 
> >right wing hungarians I think the whole area's politics would be more 
> >ideologically and less ethnically based. The resultant drop in PUNR 
> >support would be welcome news to me. Would you care to suggest such a test?
> 
> As long as the perception of ethnic Hungarians in Romania is that they are
> threatened as an ethnicity, such a sentiment is likely to transcend 
> political views of a less elementary nature.

Certainly I would expect hungarian political views to be unitary about 
ethnic issues but a political party is much more than a vehicle for ethnic 
issues. There is no reason whatsoever that they could not form hungarian 
caucuses inside the various ideological parties that suit them and attempt 
to influence events inside the mainstream parties. After all if there 
were significant hungarian caucuses inside the USD, CDR, PDSR, as well as 
in the minor parties, it would be difficult for Romanian chauvanists to 
make an us v. them argument. Certainly, hungarians would get much more 
support from their fellow party members and if they earn enough political 
capital, they could quite easily gain more sympathy, understanding, and 
productive legislation for their community's benefit.

> Now, I am well aware of the views of many Romanians, namely that Romanian
> Hungarians have no reason for such perceptions, but the fact remains that
> such perceptions are very widespread.

It's not that there is no recognition of the perception, it is that the 
idea of ethnicity overriding ideology seems to have taken hold in the 
hungarian minority in Romania. If we are to continue to avoid Yugoslavia's 
fate, we need to get ethnicity out of politics *as an overriding interest*. 
Ideology is a much safer medium of political confrontation.

> So, the best way for Romanians to create political divisions among Romanian
> Hungarians is to make them feel perfectly contented as an ethnic minority ;-)
.

Hungarians, like every other political group, are never going to be 
"perfectly contented" because democratic politics is the art of compromise.
Everybody gives a little and feels a little pain to avoid the even greater 
pain of negotiation via warfare. What Romania needs to do is to treat 
Hungarians equally, not to try to buy them off and make them content while 
ethnic Romanians feel betrayed and start signing up in droves for PUNR & PRM.

We both need to understand in our bones that one group cannot be happy unless 
the other group is happy as well.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

 (T.M.Lutas) writes:

>This is one of the reasons that UDMR makes me nervous. If there were an 
>easy way to separate out the left-wing hungarians in transylvania from the 
>right wing hungarians I think the whole area's politics would be more 
>ideologically and less ethnically based. The resultant drop in PUNR 
>support would be welcome news to me. Would you care to suggest such a test?

As long as the perception of ethnic Hungarians in Romania is that they are
threatened as an ethnicity, such a sentiment is likely to transcend 
political views of a less elementary nature.

Now, I am well aware of the views of many Romanians, namely that Romanian
Hungarians have no reason for such perceptions, but the fact remains that
such perceptions are very widespread.

So, the best way for Romanians to create political divisions among Romanian
Hungarians is to make them feel perfectly contented as an ethnic minority ;-).

George Antony
PERSONAL OPINION ONLY

 wrote:

<snip>
<nothing at all about Joe Szalai>
<expressing an opinion about a class of people
supporting criminals in the highest office of any land>
<snip>
<here comes the answer>

>Are you still receiving treatment for your condition, Mr. Szucs?
>
>Joe Szalai

Is it clear enough, Joe?

In article >,
 > wrote:
|  wrote:
| 
| <snip>
| <nothing at all about Joe Szalai>
| <expressing an opinion about a class of people
| supporting criminals in the highest office of any land>
| <snip>
| <here comes the answer>
| 
| >Are you still receiving treatment for your condition, Mr. Szucs?
| >
| >Joe Szalai
| 
| Is it clear enough, Joe?
| 
| 
Absolutely clear.... Another newly opened thread, with
nothing substantial shown from the article responded to
except one sentence comments from you.

Istvan

T.M.Lutas > wrote:
>
>A lot of this was due to the fact that there was no PNT-cd  structure to speak
 
>of in New York. That's changing now. Mr. Dinu Aluman has been recently 
>appointed as US VP of the PNT-cd structure and he is a New York resident and 
>he has decided to organize the NYC metropolitan area. I signed up so now, 
>at least theoretically, people can hang the PNT to a small degree on what 
>I say. Hopefully, we'll be getting up an official PNT website which I will
>likely write the code for. 

Sorry, but I haven't the faintest what you are talking about here.
What is this PNT-cd structure?

>I don't think that I would be able to make a generalization. Heck, half 
>the time if they post in english, I can't tell for certain that they are 
>Romanian or not. Wally Keeler could be some sick SRI plot to give 

Well, we know Wally is not Romanian.  I only meant the native Romanian
contributors who grew up in the Ceausescu era.

>Well, it stands to reason. I'm not going to challenge you on this. 

Now that's something for the record books! ;-)

>by its very nature the net makes such advantages more irrelevant than in 
>any other field of endeavor. For example, look at the political pages I 
>publish. With a very small amount of money I've generated waves far larger
>than I could have in any other medium.

Considering that you are only 27 (I thought you were at least in your
mid 30s), you've accomplished quite a lot indeed!

>If you haven't taken a look lately, the address is 
>http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

I don't know ...  I'm afraid to find there a good dose of
Hungary-bashing again.  So why ruin this budding relationship? ;-)

>The Kadar Jugend as you call them or Ceausescu's Children in Romania are 
>handicapped because they are essentially a rear guard action. They have no 
>moral legitimacy. They cannot tolerate open, frank discussion of the past, 
>and they are in no position to promote any positive agenda. 

Try to explain that to them and watch their reaction ...
>
>If there is anything in the world that promotes open, frank discussion 
>among huge numbers of people and the promotion of positive agenda better 
>than the Internet, I've yet to see it. These guys are paper tigers and 
>any attempt by them to control things runs up against the very structure 
>of the internet as a robust network that cannot be killed or censored.

Oh, I don't know about that.  With the help of their allies here in the
US, they were already able to get at least one Hungarian fired from his job
at a national lab.  That's hardly paper tigers.
I think these guys figured out how to muzzle Internet users.  If they
can't come up with winning arguments, they threaten their opponents with
their livelyhood.

>What you really need is to find some Hungarian anti-communist jews or 
>hungarians with some jewish ancestry to take care of the anti-semite 
>attack. People who have some portion of that heritage are much more 
>self-confident in the face of those attacks. This is not to say that
>real anti-semitism is to be tolerated but this charge, like any other, 
>can be used as a red herring and when it is, the tactic should be 
>exposed and defeated. 

This has crossed my mind, too, but I think the arrogant leftist minority
manages to intimidate even their majority into silence.  Besides, the
charge of anti-semitism is something that a lot of people automatically
assume as having some basis in fact without any proof. Especially in 
politically correct circles.  Anti-semites are no longer only those who
hate Jews.  You are also branded that if a Jew hates you. The label
is thrown around like "fascist" by Berkeleyites.
>
>If you have trouble discovering them a good marker for finding a right wing 
>jew is Israeli politics. If they like Likud over Labor, you've got yourself
>a good ally in hungarian politics.

Thanks but no thanks!  I rather like the likes of Bruce Herschensohn in
California, but I'd bet that even he would automatically assume charges
of anti-semitism were true about somebody he did not know beforehand.
>
>This is one of the reasons that UDMR makes me nervous. If there were an 
>easy way to separate out the left-wing hungarians in transylvania from the 
>right wing hungarians I think the whole area's politics would be more 
>ideologically and less ethnically based. The resultant drop in PUNR 
>support would be welcome news to me. Would you care to suggest such a test?

There you go again! Dreaming of a divide-and-conquer strategy, eh?
Actually, I think that what's been keeping UDMR united is the real or
perceived external threat.  Would that diminish, UDMR would probably
split into at least two ideologically based components (left and right).
That's just the way group dynamics works.

Joe Pannon

Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.magyar
Subject: Re: Just how bad was communism morally?
Summary: 
Expires: 
References: > 
1.halcyon.com> > <4qo6mj$tl@ne
ws1.halcyon.com>
Sender: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Rice University
Keywords: 
Cc: 

In article >,  > wrote:

>I've seen a gradual
>shift of the typical Hungarian Internetter over the last 6/7 years from
>mostly the children of the former Communist era elite (who were the
>first in seizing Western study opportunities) to a more representative
>composition of the Hungarian middle class today.  However, due to their
>earlier opportunities, the children of the former elite (some of us
>fondly call the "Kadar Jugend"), are in better positions than the late
>comers.  BTW, don't expect me to prove any of this with statistics; it's
>only my educated guess.  Members of the "Kadar Jugend" are usually
>very careful not to hint anything about their background, but they are
>still fairly easily recognized by their views.  
Hi Joe, 

good to see you riding your favorite hobby horse! Having been labelled
"Ka1da1rgyerek" and "Ka1da1rve1do3" often enough I guess I'm an official
representative of the "Ka1da1r Jugend". My background is no secret: I grew up
on Ro1zsadomb, and never tried to hide the fact. Nor did, to the best of my
knowledge, anybody else in the same group, a point that I shall return to
below.

The term "former Communist era elite" is rather deceptive. My parents were
definitely part of this elite, but they were not Communists, just as "former
Communist era" museum director Jo1zsef Antall was not one or "former Communist
era" poet Sa1ndor Csoo1ri was not one, though sure as hell Mr. Antall and I
used the same optician (a little private store at the bottom of the
Ro1zsadomb) and Csoo1ri lived on one of the most spectacular streets of
Ro1zsadomb, six bus stops down from where I lived (on Ro1zsadomb the 
closer to the bottom the higher the prestige). 

There is no question that the children of the elite had better opportunities
in every undertaking than other children -- this is part of the definition 
of "elite" after all. But the group that Joe likes to call "Ka1da1r Jugend"
tends to take pride in accomplishments that can by no stretch of the 
imagination be called politically grounded, such as winning the math or 
physics national competition or publishing articles in refereed (western) 
journals, that sort of thing. To be sure, a good education, in fact the 
availability of a decent library at home, already makes a big difference 
in favor of "children of the elite", but even the best library or education
will get you nowhere unless you read the books and study. 

The fact of the matter is that the "elite" high schools (including my own alma
mater, Mo1ricz Gymnasium) and universities had highly competitive entrance
exams at least from the late sixties onwards. They also had affirmative action
policies admitting children of workers (those who had the coveted "F" in their
school file, "F" meaning "fizikai munka1s") at far lower scores than children
of the elite. These schools, then, produced the newer generation of "elite",
and continue to do so to this day. Such a system has been in place e.g. in 
England and France for centuries, and even in the US your chances of amounting
to something in later life are considerably better if you graduated with top 
grades from the Bronx High School of Science than if you graduated from the
Bubb High School in Eastern Kalamazoo. 

It is not my goal to defend a system of privilege, such as exists in Hungary
and many other places of the world, but it is patently unrealistic to lay the
blame, as Joe does, at the feet of the Communists. The system was in place
before, and remained in place after, Communism. It might be hard for Joe to
believe, but few of the "Ka1da1r Jugend" were brought up as communists. I
myself have read Solzhenitsin and Orwell long before the obligatory course in
"scientific socialism" at university, and my views were shaped by the former
not the latter. For the few (and they were few and far between, since
communism lost all respectability by 1956) children of religious communists
growing up in the seventies, the communist beliefs of their parents were a
curse not a blessing, and such children mostly parted ways with their parents
over the issue.

So for a generation of people who were predominantly neither communist nor
children of communists the term "Ka1da1r Jugend" is not particularly 
upsetting, for they know they are not guilty as charged. It is for this 
simple reason that these people do not, contrary to what Joe says, try to 
hide their origins. 

>They go to elaborate lengths arguing against or ridiculing any suggestion of
>calling former communist to account for their deeds.
Joe, could you cite an example? The fact of the matter is that Hungarian
society shows little enthusiasm for punishing former communists. MDF got
elected on the slogan of the "Calm Power" and if they preserved their calm
(rather than following the harsh anti-communist rhetoric of Mr. Ze1te1nyi and
the like) they would have probably been reelected. As it happened, MDF was
ready to prosecute the communists and the country voted massively in favor of
a man well-known to have been a "padded coat" after 56. I'm not ridiculing 
the idea of "calling former communists to account" I'm merely pointing out 
that this idea, whatever its merits in the sense of abstract justice, is not
particularly popular in Hungary: Mr. Horn got elected because this was the 
only way for society to make sure it won't happen. 

It is pretty much the same story with the recovery of Greater Hungary, another
idea that is very popular with MIE1P and other parties on the far right, but
totally unpopular with the rest of the country. If there was a plebiscite
tomorrow whether Hungary should get Transylvania back, there would be no more
than 10% voting for it (MIE1P routinely gets 1-2% in elections). As a matter
of fact MIE1P usually gets a better share of the vote on Ro1zsadomb than in
the rest of the country, so it would be hard to say this is just the
Ro1zsadomb elite speaking. There are other cardinal items on the far right's
agenda, such as "teaching a lesson" to the IMF, but we should leave these to
another time. Let it simply be said that the far right has much more of a 
presence on the internet (due to a large number of 56er emigres) than in 
Hungary. 

>When that fails, they also manage somehow to throw in the the red herring of
>anti-semitism.  I must admit they have a perfect score record so far: not one
>former communist official was put on trial yet!
That there is antisemitism in the far right is hardly questionable: anybody
capable of reading Hungarian can assess that for themselves. The issue is 
relevant to the question of punishing the communists only to the extent the
far right makes it so, by making prominent mention of the fact that this or 
that communist was Jewish. On the whole, trying to raise antisemitism in 
Hungary was one of the least successful aspects of far right propaganda, 
even more unseccessful than the attempt to raise anti-communist feelings, 
so we might as well disregard the issue. In this respect, the situation was
markedly different in 1992, when it looked as if Csurka amounted to 
something, than in 1996, when it is clear that he is just a big fat idiot. 
 
As for the punishment of communists, I sincerely doubt anything will happen.
The worst abuses of communism were in the fifties: the generation of people
who were in positions of power at the time were themselves in their forties,
fifties, and sixties at the time, meaning they are in their eighties and
beyond today. It's hard to work up a "let's do justice" sentiment against
octogenerians (not that the far right didn't try with Marosa1n). The abuses of
the fifties and the early Ka1da1r regime remain most clear in the minds of the
56er emigres. However, the "Ka1da1r Jugend" has parents who were in their
twenties and thirties during the Ra1kosi period, meaning they were for the
most part in junior positions, often youthful 56ers themselves, and have
nothing to fear from even the most zealous prosecution of former communists.

Joe somehow thinks that people equate the abuses of the fifties with that of
the sixties and the seventies (not that those were blame-free periods but they
were increasingly less and less totalitarian, a development that has not taken
place in Romania) and tries to promote a policy based on that equality. But
the fifties were different from the sixties, and the sixties from the
seventies, and those who stayed in Hungary know this. In East Germany or
Romania, were dictatorship was much more harsh as late as the eighties, there
is more of a popular anti-communist sentiment, and we might see more
prosecution.
 
Instead of remaining fixated on the past, the right (I don't mean the far
right, which I consider hopeless, but the moderate/conservative right) should
concentrate on drawing a wedge between MSZP and SZDSZ. The current coalition
is based on the "Democratic Charta", which itself was a product of the brief
ascendancy of the far right. Remove the threat of far right participation in
politics and MSZP loses a lot of its current appeal. Remove the most unpopular
planks from the various rightwing platforms, and SZDSZ, which is very
sensitive to what is popular and what isn't, is just as likely to be a
minority partner of a right-wing government as a left-wing one.

Andra1s Kornai

 wrote:

>Tiztelt halgatosag:
>
>Johogy szotatok mert mar irtam, de nem mindenki olvas, hogy nekem
>semi kozom nincsena Toth Judith-oz aki a 24.orat csinali.Semi rokonsagba
>vagy ismerecsegbe nem vagyok sevele, se nem a csalagyaval.A Nemzet es
>a tobi ujsag tizta kulon dolog, semi kozuk.
>
>Magyart igasz hogy nem hasznalom gyakran es hat rosdas.  Ha fontos
>jon fel, ra mondom a tape re angolba es mekerem egy gyereket hogy
>fordicsa at.Most is lehetne szolni hogy egy gyerek fesulye ki,
>diszicse ki de ma nem tudok ijen dogokal sok idomet totteni.
>Tetyetek be a masinaba ahogy van aszt kesz.Csakakor szojatok ha
>elszalad a lu.Tietek a gyeplo ha balag.
>
>Bisztos nem tugyak azok meg aszt sem hogy csak Los Angeles ben is
>hany Toth van. Nem mind ugyan az.Engem meg ma sok mindenkinek nesztek
>de Judith-nak meg sosem. Man csak a bajszom miat se.Hungarista meg
>mas szidalomok amikel tele szorni akarnak penig nem votam sose, aszt
>jo tugyatok.Man nem is leszk.En man csak aszt akarom megelni hogy
>Kun Bela bolsevikijei takarogyanak harmatszor is az en os regi fodem
>birtokarol.Korab is vot gane, de enyi nem vot.Edig leg alab az
>Arpad Haz kirajainkat bekebe hatytak.Harom a magyar igassag. Sokba
>jon ez most is, de mekkel torteni.Isten nem neszheti eszt csakugy.
>
>Isten megalgya minda tesveremet
>a nemzetbe
>- Joseph Toth
>
>
>
>

Szia, SZlovak elvtars!

ERdekes, hogy fel evvel ezelott meg nagyon szepen, hibatlanul irtal nekem 
e-mailt. Hogy sikerult fel ev alatt elfelejteni a nyelvet?

Ivan

Someone replyied me that people here are not "antipatica" but "ignorante".
Who where you, I couldn't end the e-mail nor keep your mail address because
I deleted the letter by mistake. Of course you are not "antipaticos", in
that case I wouldn't bother in learning your language. But I had asked 
some questions and I didn't get any reply.

Can you explain what you sent me again, please.
-- 
Juan Carlos Azkoitia         

"Munka dreapta nu se pierde."
Proverb Romanesc

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irasairol lenne szo - jeleznem, hogy a stilus sokkal inkabb Csornara
es/vagy Egyedre utal, amint a regebbi Forum szamokban fellelheto
szovegekkel egybevetve lathato... 

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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In article >,
Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski  > wrote:
|  (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:
| >In article >,
| >   Ivan Marinov > wrote:
| >>Peter Szaszvari wrote:
| >>> On the other hand, it is nice that you Christians are so
| >>> concerned, but would you be so kind to kep your concerns for
| >>> yourselves?
| >>
| >>We want to make the world a better place for life. 
| >>
| >>Ivan
| >
| >Please make it only on your side and only for Christians. For me 
| >it could not improve much. Consider me as a "living" thing. I 
| >tell you clear and loud: Thank you, you don't have to worry about 
| >me. 
| >(Our dfinition of "better" may differ...)
| 
| There is only one valid definition of "good". But you're free to exercise 
| your free will and to choose a wrong definition. It's sad, but we don't 
| have right to oppose your free will.    :-((((
| 
| Ivan

Sure, but why would I believe that you are the one who knows
what is universally good?

Istvan

TU Vienna wrote:
 
> 1. Sokkal tobb kommunista van mint fasiszta ma Magyarorszagon. Mig a kommunis
ta
>    veszely (ld. valasztasok az oroszoknal) realis, addig a fasiszta veszely
>    abszolute irrealis, csak beteges emberek agyaban szulethet az meg, vagy
>    meginkabb politikai szandekkal, a sajat bunokrol, kulonosen a
>    privatizacio soran elkovetett buncselekmenyekrol valo figyelem eltereles
>    vegett. Tovabba nagyon jo ervkent szolgal a Nyugat fele a kialakult
>    media hegemonia magyarazatakent annak elefogadtatasara.
>    Ti.: Ha ezeknek a kezebe kerulne a kamera/mikrofon etc akkor itt embereket
>    gazositananak el, lonenek a dunaba stb.

Teny, hogy kommunistabol joval tobb van, mint fasisztabol. Teny, hogy sok tekin
tetben a 
kommunizmus karosabb, mint a fasizmus. De ez nem jelenti azt, hogy szotlanul 
kellene hagynunk annak a nehany fasisztanak a magamutagato baromsagait. Mi, 
keresztenyek, ugyanilyen kerlelhetetlenek vagyunk a kommunistakkal szemben is. 
(Nekik 
meg nem jutott eszukbe kommunista Internet-lapot kiadni, legalabbis magyarul ne
m, mert 
angolul mar lattam ilyesmit.) Mi, keresztenyek nem beszelunk kulon-kulon libera
lisokrol, 
 fasisztakrol es kommunistakrol, mivel mindharom csoport Isten szemszogebol ugy
anazt a 
gondolkodasmodot testesiti meg: az ateista gondolkodasmodot.

> 2. A fasisztazas nevetseges.

Nevetseges fasisztazni a fasisztakat?

Ivan

In article >,
 > wrote:

>1956, indeed, was a heroic Freedomfight against the Evil Empire, for
>which the world still owes Hungary.

Why in the World would the World owe anything for that? Only Russia is
responsible for crashing it.
GK

Dear Andra's Kornai,

Although  you seems to support those who caused Pe'ter Neme'nyi's fate, 
and you are not perfect morally in my eyes, I answer to your post, because
you touched an important point.

In my opinion you, and the group where you belong (Kadar Jugend), 
completely lost its sense of reality. SZDSZ is the most hated party by the 
right. From MDF 
to MIEP, and by the majority  of FIDESZ. This is a well known and
highly publicized fact, even Petho acknowledged that. That is "dream 
policy" what you are suggesting. It can never happen.
(I have seen similar dreem policy of the MDF. They beleived similar
stupidities before the elections. This is the most sure sign of the 
loosers. So you made me a bit happy. Thank you!)

It is far more probable that MDF, KDNP and even FKGP makes a deal with
MSZP than SZDSZ. SZDSZ is far more bolschevik than MSZP. Do not think
that the post-maoist pre-fascist idiots, like TGM would improve its image.

Both the supporters and especially the party members would regard
as a betrayal any deal and especially coalition with SZDSZ.
Not making coalition with SZDSZ is part of the program of several riht 
wing parties.

Good sleep, Andra's. And do not wake up, please :-) By-by. 

Tibor

O'dor Tibor

Ps.: I also think that your interpretation of the election results is
completely false, but I am not interested in the subject.
My guess that my fellow Hungarians were more concerned about the price
of the bread than any other thing. And they remained. Bad news for you,
Andra's. Very bad. Because those prices did not became lower. 

You also spoke about F category for children of workers. But you did not 
spoke about those, who were children of class-aliens (and those who 
spent some years in communist prison camps), like me, who also had some
books at home. Do not forget, books were very cheap in those times. And 
you did not have to buy. You could borrow from the library. 
So blame your father.  They made a bad job.

In article >,
 > wrote:
>In article >,  > wrote:
>>I have a small request.  I want to compliment a very attractive and nice
>>young Hungarian woman (age 26) in her own language. At the least, I would
>>want to convey that she is both pretty and appealing as a person.
>>
>>Can anyone help me?
>
>Sure!  Just send her to Goober and I'm sure he would be more than happy
>to personally deliver your compliments.
>
>But seriously, are you sure she'll like you trying to be "fresh" with
>her?  Well, this didn't turn out to be very serious either, but you do get
>my drift, don't you?  The whole idea sounds pretty corny to me.
>
>Joe

Now as you mention it: since the original posting I conducted a little survey 
among girls of several nations (Hungarian, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Russian
and German to be exaxt, all students) an the the words they used to express 
their opinion on someone who does not speak their language trying to deliver 
such compliments on their language were as follows (order in frequency of use):
Corny, artificial (mesterkelt), strange, disturbing, cute, special.
Most opinions were that it would not appeal to the girl. Very few thought it 
would be something they would see as positive effort.
The survey has a HUGE margin off error (too small and probably not
representative sample population)

Just my 2 cents worth.
GK

In article >,
Nick > wrote:
>I am interested in finding a business related job in Hungary with an
>American company.  I would work for a Hungarian company, but I doubt the
>pay would be enough.

No kidding! Why do you think Hungary is in trouble? Not enough pay for the
workers to buy-stuff-and-create-jobs-for-other-workers. The upper 5000 gets
filthy rich, the remaining 10 millio goes to poverty.

>Nick Szabo

GK

 () wrote:

> wrote:

>>ez jo voot pelionisz ba'... haat akor indoljunk.... a nepies iranba, na!
>>csak rosdasan, rosdasan!

>S ezt pont olyan valaki irja, aki elso jelentkezesekor csak angolul mert
>irni, mivel sajat bevallasa szerint a magyar mar nem ment jol neki.

>Hat ez is jo, nem mondom!

>Pannon J.

	Az Istenert Jozsi ne probaljon ilyen alacsony szinvonalon vitazni,
hiszen maganak is tudnia kell, hogy Joseph Toth ur nem letezik. Miert
all ki megis mellette.

	Ami pedig efischer magyar tudasat illeti. Ket evvel ezelott nekem is
nehezemre esett magyarul irni--Es? Negyven eves kulfoldi tartozkodas
utan es magyarul beszelo baratok vagy ismerosok nelkul talan szabad.
Ez talan azt jelenti, hogy az illeto nem jo magyar?

	Balogh Eva

"Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" > wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> Ha mar vannak, akik egyreszt felig komoly szoveg-elemzesnek vetik ala a
>siliconvalley figura(ka)t, masreszt alapfelteveskent kezelik hogy PA
>irasairol lenne szo - jeleznem, hogy a stilus sokkal inkabb Csornara
>es/vagy Egyedre utal, amint a regebbi Forum szamokban fellelheto
>szovegekkel egybevetve lathato... 

>- --
> Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;

	Ezt mar valaki nekem par hettel ezelott maganlevelben is megirta, de
mivel akkoriban, amikor Csornai es Egyed irsogalt a Forumra, en meg
nem olvastam a HIX kiadvanyokat nem tudom eldonteni, hogy igaz-e ez
vagy sem. Valoszinuleg igaz, mivel tudomasom szerint Csornai  a
HUNGARY megrendeloi koze tartozik es nem tudom elkepzelni, hogy szo
nelkul meg tudna allni az ott folyo vitakat.

	Kulonben az alnev, egy uj e-mail cimrol irott irasok egyre nagyonbb
nepszerusegnek orvendenek. Peldaul egyik forumi hozzaszolo nagy garral
kijelentette mar nappal ezelott, hogy o mar pedig lemondja a listat es
oda soha tobbe nem fog irni. De egy-ket nap mulva megjelent alnev
alatt egy AOL cimrol. Az illetonek kulonben olyan egyedi stilusa van,
hogy majdnem lehetetlen kiletet ilyenforman eltitkolni.

	Udv, Eva (Balogh)

In >, TU Vienna > writes:
 >Ennel tisztesegtelenebb irast mar nagyon reg olvastam.
 >Gratulalok! Igazan melto Onhoz! A humorerzeke is
 >egyszeruen kivalo!

Meg korabban ezt irta nekem/rolam:
 >a korabbi irasaibol kiderul, hogy On egy kis
 >akadekoskodo bolsi, aki mindenen megsertodik, amit a masik oldal
 >mond.

Aki a sertegetessel es polemiaval olyan gazdagon es bokezuen banik mint
eppen maga, es aki a masikat allitolagos sertodossegeert kritizalja, az
ne legyen ennyire finomkodo.

 >Olyanokkal gyanusit, olyan dolgokat ad a szamba, amit
 >en soha nem gondoltam. Lelke rajta. De ahogy elnezem,
 >velem ellentetben On eleg rossz alvo lehet.
 >
 >Tisztelettel,
 >O'dor Tibor

Aggodasra semmi ok, kivaloan alszom.

Nem gyanusitom es nem adok semmit a szajaba.  (Kihagyom a ziccert. :-))
Azt allitottam, hogy maga rosszindulatuan osszemossa a liberalisok
csoportjat a kommunistakeval, s egyben azonositja az igy letrejott halmazt
a zsidosaggal, vegul pedig mindharmat a vilag bajaiert okolja.  Idezet
ontol:

 >From: Tibor Odor >
 >Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
 >Subject: Re: Magyar korrektseg, avagy a FAQ sztori
 >Date: 16 Feb 1996 12:54:01 -0000
 >[...]
 >Mert mi talan megtehetjuk, ugyanis a Horn Gyula meg a Petho Ivan
 >meg a Soros Gyorgy meg a tobbi pufajkas/avos sopredek es segitoik
 >bennunket nem igazan tud utol erni es korlatozni.
 >[...]
 >(Bocs mindenki, de nemregiben kukkantottam bele J. Kahn es masok Nagy
 >Osszeeskuves, Szikra, 1949 cimu "konyvebe", mely a sztalini SZU igen
 >harcos vedelmere irodott.
 >Abban olvastam ilyeneket. Mindenkinek ajanlom hatterirodalomkent. Akkor
 >talan jobban megerti, hogy Peter Szaszvari, Zoltan Fekete, Gabor Barsai
 >es masok ervelesi modszerei, taktikai honnan eredeztethetok.
 >
 >Ezeknek a modszereknek durvabb valtozataival hoztak letre a GULAG-ot,
 >Recsket, Kistarcsat. Valojaban Auswitzot is, csak azt egy masik csapat,
 >akiktol azert hala istennek lenyegeben megszabadultunk.
 >
 >Azota nyugaton tanultak a fijjuk, megtanultak a
 >liberalis "ertekekkel" [...] kiegesziteni
 >mondokajukat. Igy lesznek a voros fasisztakbol es (esetleg nem verszerinti,
 >de szellemi) fattyaikbol "progresszivek".)

Ennyi talan eleg igazolasul, hogy mikent hozza a liberalizmust a
kommunizmussal, sot, amirol nem is irtam, a fasizmussal (eppen maga,
hah!  aki mindenkit azzal gyanusit hogy "fasisztaz", holott en pl. ezt
meg senkire sem mondtam!) fedesbe.

Azt is irtam hogy meg egy lepessel tovabbmegy, es a zsidosagot is
belekeveri.  Ezt az allitasomat nem tudom igazolni, ezert egy
bocsanatkeressel egyetemben visszavonom.  A tobbi all.  Hic
Rhodus, hic salta: cafolja allitasomat.
      ,
Nagy Peter

In article >,  () wrote:

> T.M.Lutas > wrote:
> >
> >A lot of this was due to the fact that there was no PNT-cd  structure
to speak 
> >of in New York. That's changing now. Mr. Dinu Aluman has been recently 
> >appointed as US VP of the PNT-cd structure and he is a New York resident and
 
> >he has decided to organize the NYC metropolitan area. I signed up so now, 
> >at least theoretically, people can hang the PNT to a small degree on what 
> >I say. Hopefully, we'll be getting up an official PNT website which I will
> >likely write the code for. 
> 
> Sorry, but I haven't the faintest what you are talking about here.
> What is this PNT-cd structure?

OK, not in shorthand this time. The PNT-cd is the Partidul National Taranist - 
crestin si democrat (National Peasant Party - christian democrat). It is the 
foremost center-right opposition party and the party I have chosen to support.
PNT-cd structure refers to officers and legal organizations that are 
recognized as being part of the official party. You can be a sympathizer 
of a party and not be enrolled in the structure. You can even be an independent
 
activist and the party is not responsible for what you do or say. But once 
you start working with official representatives, sign up and fill out your 
membership card, and start taking orders, the relationship changes. For 
example, look at Gabriel Savulescu. He is the official representative of the 
PL-93. He is part of their structure and what he says, who he insults, and 
how he acts are official acts of that party and tell everybody what that 
party is like. 

> >I don't think that I would be able to make a generalization. Heck, half 
> >the time if they post in english, I can't tell for certain that they are 
> >Romanian or not. Wally Keeler could be some sick SRI plot to give 
> 
> Well, we know Wally is not Romanian.  I only meant the native Romanian
> contributors who grew up in the Ceausescu era.

No actually we don't know that Wally Keeler is not Romanian unless some 
other 'reputable' SCR people actually went and verified this. The 
identification process on the Internet is much more tenuous than most people 
are willing to admit. That's ok for the most part, my opinion of Wally 
wouldn't change much if he *was* a sick, twisted SRI plot. 

The point is that identifying people who do not want to be identified is 
a very difficult matter and it is much more important IMHO to examine by 
direct means where somebody is intellectually (via their posts) than who 
somebody is ethnically, or whose son or daughter they are. There are 
people who come from impeccable backgrounds who themselves aren't worth 
the stick it would take to scrape them off your shoe and vice versa.

> >by its very nature the net makes such advantages more irrelevant than in 
> >any other field of endeavor. For example, look at the political pages I 
> >publish. With a very small amount of money I've generated waves far larger
> >than I could have in any other medium.
> 
> Considering that you are only 27 (I thought you were at least in your
> mid 30s), you've accomplished quite a lot indeed!

See what I mean about the problems of identification on the net?

> >If you haven't taken a look lately, the address is 
> >http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
> 
> I don't know ...  I'm afraid to find there a good dose of
> Hungary-bashing again.  So why ruin this budding relationship? ;-)

Actually I don't even have a section on the Hungarian/Romanian 
ethnic issue. I had a lot more important stuff to talk about and I wanted 
to keep it in a straight left/right confrontation fashion as much as 
possible.

> >The Kadar Jugend as you call them or Ceausescu's Children in Romania are 
> >handicapped because they are essentially a rear guard action. They have no 
> >moral legitimacy. They cannot tolerate open, frank discussion of the past, 
> >and they are in no position to promote any positive agenda. 

> Try to explain that to them and watch their reaction ...

Why bother explaining to a paraplegic that he has no legs? The fact is he 
doesn't have them. Act accordingly and revel in your advantage over the 
sons of communist party members.

> >If there is anything in the world that promotes open, frank discussion 
> >among huge numbers of people and the promotion of positive agenda better 
> >than the Internet, I've yet to see it. These guys are paper tigers and 
> >any attempt by them to control things runs up against the very structure 
> >of the internet as a robust network that cannot be killed or censored.
> 
> Oh, I don't know about that.  With the help of their allies here in the
> US, they were already able to get at least one Hungarian fired from his job
> at a national lab.  That's hardly paper tigers.
> I think these guys figured out how to muzzle Internet users.  If they
> can't come up with winning arguments, they threaten their opponents with
> their livelyhood.

Given a person and a desire to persecute, I would suspect that you could 
get that person fired just as easily off the internet as on. I'd have to 
hear the case but if it was a government worker fired for private speech 
using his own resources on his own time, he's got a hell of a lawsuit there.

I've been threatened with lawsuit by leftists before. It never stopped me, 
it never will. Besides, I'm too poor to sue.

Send me privately the details of any such cases that worry you and we'll 
discuss them.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

 wrote:
> 
> Szántóföldet keresek megvételre. Ajánlatot kérek.
> T.K.Avar, Semmelweiss u 5/ Ie,8380 Héviz,
>  email: 

Kedves jovendobeli Foldesur:

Van a kaliforniai Szilikon Volgyben egy volt magyar foldes ur, Toth Jozsi 
bacsi a neve, aki biztos eladna telket/birtokat amit valamikor a 
bolsevikok kisajatitottak, de most, hala Istennek, a bolsevikok hivatalos 
lebukasa ota jogilag senki foldje. Jozsi bacsi biztos szivesen eladna 
maganak pottom aron mielott egy nouvo-paraszt azt megvenne a nouvo-bolsi 
kormanytol. Jozsi bacsi nagy magyar hazafi -bar szep magyar hazajaba mar 
nem hajlando visszaterni mivel itt nagy ujsag kiado mogul lett- de 
orommel adna el egy jo os magyar embernek mint maga lehet a jo kun-avar 
nevevel. Avar-birtok, vagy Avar-tanya nagyon hazafiasnak hangzana es 
egyszer meg gyulekezo es kikepzo taborra is valhatna magyar hazafiaknak 
akik kisopornek a jelenlegi liberal-bolseviki uralkodokat szep magyar 
orszaghazunkbol.

Mint egy volt 56-os magyar szabadsagharcos, forradalmar, felkelo, stb. 
(tudgya mi otvenhatosok meg mindig nem egyezunk meg azon, hogy mik votunk 
-vannak koztunk ojan rovid emlekezetuek akik nem biztosak, hogy mar akkor 
hasznaltuk-e a szot "szabadsagharc", vagy csak kesobb, November 4 utan a 
Szabad Europa titulalta rank a kifejezest. Persze ez a kifejezes dolga 
csak azokat a volt szabadsagharcosokat aggasztja, akik mar Oktober 24-re 
kezdtek az Osztrak-Magyar hatar kulonbozo atkelo helyeire somfordalni, 
vagy az agyala bujtak mikor a lovoldozes elkezdodott. Nem akarok 
dicsekedni, de en szereztem egy puskat, egy kicsit lovoldoztem is -en 
akkor az Eotvos L. T. E. Bakacsteri diakotthonaban laktam, s barataimmal 
jartuk az izgalmas helyeket, de mi csak a felkelok, forradalmarok 
kifejezest hasznaltuk magunk megnevezesere, s majd mikor man Ausztriaban 
voltam mint "menekult" akkor meghatva hallottam, hogy en refugee 
(menekult) es freedom-fighter (szabadsagharcos) voltam. Gondoltam mivel 
ez sok annyi elonnyel, jutalmazassal es dicserettel jar mar elfogadom a 
neveket. Lehet, hogy Szucs Andras batyamat (szinten szilikon volgyi 
otvenhatos) mar a hatar elott valami kulfoldi ujsag iro 
szabadsagharcosnak nevezte, s az is lehet, hogy szegeny Balogh Eva meg 
Parizsig nem botlott bele egy kulfoldibe aki valami konkret kifejezest 
adott volna neki, s igy nem csoda, hogy szegeny holgy nem emlekszik, hogy 
neki szabadsagharcosnak kellett volna lennie. Na, az a fontos, hogy Szucs 
Andras batya emlekszik)

..... na most hol voltam? Uzlettol politikaig ugrottam. Ha jo amerikaiva 
valtam volna ennyi ev alatt akkor elosszor az uzleti temat befejeztem 
volna (de ugy latszik, hogy a viz nem vallik borra konnyen)
Szoval a Toth Jozsi bacsi eladna volt becses telket Avar-urnak. Lepjen 
vele kapcsolatba. Ha szemelyesen jonne a Szilikon volgybe akkor 
erdeklodjon a magyar sajto birtokos irant, a Nemzet szerkesztoje felol 
(itt meg az ovodas gyerekek is ismertesek az Internet minden zegje-bugja 
felol), vagy alljon meg a nagy magyar Pellionisz lakasnal, ott biztos 
kiismertetik. Meg a Szucs Andras bacsi is megtudna mutatni a Jozsi bacsi 
estate-jet, biztos Athertonban lakik, ott lakik egy dus gazdag amerikai 
ujsag kiado is, a William Hearst. A Hearst bacsi is nagy patriota, de o 
amerikai patriota.

Gyuh, de sokat beszelek, mintha mar ittunk volna egy kupeca kisustit a 
Jozsi bacsi es Avar ur jovendobeli megegyezesere.
Szoval sok szerencset. Tisztelettel, Horvath Laszlo, volt felkelo, 
forradalmar es ha ugymongy akkor legyen szabadsagharcos is.

 (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:

>In article >,
>    (Odor Tibor) wrote:
>>Dear Eva S. Balogh,
>>
>>I enjoyed your last post very much! This took 
>>the most sense among your posts you have ever written on the 
>Net!
>>
>>Congratulations!
>>
>>All the best,
>>
>>Your true friend,
>>
>>Tibor O'dor

>Dear Eva,

>Du you really want to be friends with this guy? :)
>In fact it can be really insulting to declare somebody a friend. 
>(see above)

>Best regards, SzP.


Dear Peter!

	Mr. Odor's lines were not complimentary--it was ironic. I attached a
contribution of mine from HUNGARY to my letter and it turned out to be
gibberish: just a jumble-mumble. So, I will have to sit down and
retype parts of it.

	But to answer your letter. No, I sure don't want to have Tibor Odor as
my friend and I do hope that he will never agree with anything I have
to say. I am 100% sure that I will never agree with anything he says.
He is one of the most blatant far-right winger I have ever had the
pleasure of encountering. I do hope that we have very few like him in
Hungary. Otherwise, we are in trouble.

	Eva Balogh

 (Eva S. Balogh) wrote:

 wrote:


>>I challenge everyone to show ANYBODY who has been a more devoted,
>>and/or more verbal supporter on Internet of Prime Minister Gyula Horn's
>>regime than Eva Balogh!

>	Here is one of my admiring pieces on Gyula Horn. See attachment. But
>this was not the first--it just happened to be handy.

>	Eva Balogh

	Because my first effort at sending an attachment failed, here is an
abbreviated version of my original posting about Gyula Horn. But first
a bit of a background. The English-language list is read by a lot of
people who are less familiar with the details of recent Hungarian
history than those who were born there and who have been following
political changes in Hungary in the last thirty-forty years. This
piece was supposed to give the necessary background to a discussion on
hand about 1956.

"I think it wouldn't hurt to explain Gyula Horn's role in 1956. Horn
was bon in 1932 into an old communist family. His father served in the
Red Army of the Hungarian Soviet Republic in 1919. He was introduced
into illegal political activities by his older brother even before the
end of the war when he was distributing pamphlets published by the
illegal communist party. After the war, and especially after the
communist takeover in 1948/49, the Horn family fortunes rose with the
change of regime: Horn himself who had never gone to gymnasium but was
apprenticed at the age of 17 was enrolled in a "fast course": four
years of high school crammed into one....After one year of so-called
high school, he was hipped off to the Soviet Union, where he received
a degree in "finances." (The funny thing is that it is a well known
fact that Horn, although he maybe quite adroit in political dealings,
knows absolutely nothing about economics.) One is suspicious of this
so-called degree for at least two reasons: (1) the inherent weaknesses
of any Soviet course of study on "finances";l and (2) his Russian at
this early stage couldn't have been really adequate to graduate from
an institution of higher learning in four years. In any case, in 1954
he returned to Hungary and not surprisingly he immediately recieved a
high position in the Ministry of Finance. He was still so employed
when the revolution broke out. And here is the rub! Gyula Horn in the
middle of December 1956 volunteered to be a member of the militia
(pufajkasok--as they were called because of the Soviet-style quilted
winter jackets they wore). The early Kadar regime was inherently weak
and so without any popular base. For almost two months or so the
Soviet-installed puppet government didn't even dare to organize its
own military forcde. All the dirty work was done by the  Soviet
occupying forces. The people who "volunteered" in mid-December were
the most despised an, in my opinion at least, the lowest of the low.
They were serving a foreign power against 99 percent of the Hungarian
population who either actively or passively were on the side of the
revolution. And Gyula Horn who, by that time, was 26 years old, was
one of them. Reason: according to his memoirs, the revolutionaries got
hold of his brother and killed him, apparently because he was making
propaganda for Kadar's new party, the MSZMP (Magyar Szocialista
Munkaspart), trying to organize some local chapter. In any case, some
people find it difficult to forgive Gyula Horn, I being one of them.
However, it seems that the majority of the Hungarian voters are not
bothered by that. Unfortunately, or fortunately, memories of events of
forty years ago are fading from public consciousness, and the
Hungarian voters in 1994 didn't hold Gyula Horn's role in 1956 against
him and/or his party. The MSZP received 54 percent of the
parliamentary seats."

	End of quote. So, who is the pathological liar, I ask. It is clearly
stated here that "some people find it difficult to forgive Gyula Horn,
I being one of them." How much more clear can I get? Perhaps Andras
Szucs/Pellionisz/Csornai/whoever cannot read English. Or doesn't want
to understand what I am saying, so he can go in front of thousands and
say something about me which is a patent lie.

	As for his follow-up article about Ivan Peto's mother being Eva
Kallai--that's also a big lie. Eva Kallai  has nothing to do with Ivan
Peto. 
	Eva Balogh

In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> In article >,  > wrote:
> 
> >I've seen a gradual
> >shift of the typical Hungarian Internetter over the last 6/7 years from
> >mostly the children of the former Communist era elite (who were the
> >first in seizing Western study opportunities) to a more representative
> >composition of the Hungarian middle class today.  However, due to their
> >earlier opportunities, the children of the former elite (some of us
> >fondly call the "Kadar Jugend"), are in better positions than the late
> >comers.

> There is no question that the children of the elite had better opportunities
> in every undertaking than other children -- this is part of the definition 
> of "elite" after all. 

There is a difference when the "elite" is created by ability, and the "elite" 
is created by government privilege in a totalitarian regime.

> But the group that Joe likes to call "Ka1da1r Jugend"
> tends to take pride in accomplishments that can by no stretch of the 
> imagination be called politically grounded, such as winning the math or 
> physics national competition or publishing articles in refereed (western) 
> journals, that sort of thing. 

So if a child was the son of the politically disfavored, the son of an 
anti-communist, his scoring on the math or physics national competition 
was unaffected? He was permitted to publish articles in western journals 
under his name? Well, well, hungarian communism was indeed very different 
than the Romanian variety where this was concerned if this is true.

> To be sure, a good education, in fact the 
> availability of a decent library at home, already makes a big difference 
> in favor of "children of the elite", but even the best library or education
> will get you nowhere unless you read the books and study. 

The comparison isn't the studious v. the lazy but the studious priviliged 
v. the studious disadvantaged and the lazy privileged v. the lazy 
disadvantaged. 

> The fact of the matter is that the "elite" high schools (including my own alm
a
> mater, Mo1ricz Gymnasium) and universities had highly competitive entrance
> exams at least from the late sixties onwards. They also had affirmative actio
n
> policies admitting children of workers (those who had the coveted "F" in thei
r
> school file, "F" meaning "fizikai munka1s") at far lower scores than children
> of the elite. These schools, then, produced the newer generation of "elite",
> and continue to do so to this day. Such a system has been in place e.g. in 
> England and France for centuries, and even in the US your chances of amountin
g
> to something in later life are considerably better if you graduated with top 
> grades from the Bronx High School of Science than if you graduated from the
> Bubb High School in Eastern Kalamazoo. 

There were and are elite schools in the West but getting into the elite in 
the west was a combination of ability in the student and economic contribution 
to society (money). While in the communist era it was a combination of 
ability and political contribution to the rotten communist system. As for 
the children of "workers", how was this F given except on the basis of 
political service to the regime? Western scholarships are based on academic 
merit and sometimes athleticism, hardly the same thing as daddy being the 
best block snitch in Budapest, or for that matter Bucharest.
 
DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

Buna sa va fie inima la toti ! ,


Mai oameni buni, ma tot intreb cind o sa incetati odata cu polemica asta steril
a

si fara sens intre romani si maghiari ? Crede cineva dintre romani ca un maghia
r

va fi de acord vreodata cu 'argumentele' noastre ? ... Nu cred, dar poate

daca ati avea atita educatie si rafinament ati putea sa creeati o buna impresie

unor oameni ( adica maghiarilor )  care au destule prejudecati impotriva noastr
a

Prejudecatile nu le darimam cu insulte ... sau cu un limbaj care lasa de dorit 
...

Va spun cu tristete ca de cite ori intru in acest newsgroup mi se face efectiv

greata de ce fel de discutii mizerabile faceti aici ...

Mai ales, nu inteleg de ce va puneti la mintea unuia ca Keler care in fond

nu face altceva, decit intr-un mod inteligent sa va provoace stiind ca romanii

reactioneaza de cele mai multe ori destul de mizerabil in scris ...

In acest mod ii confirmati teoriile lui, privind lipsa noastra de educatie si a
ltele

care le stiti destul de bine . In alta ordine de idei, nu stiu multi dintre voi
 de

unde dati aceste mesaje ... Poate unii sinteti de prin America, Canada si alte

tarimuri ... dar de multe ori cind ma uit la gindirea acelora care 'infecteaza'
 

acest newsgroup, ma refer la romani, imi dau seama ca parca ati trai in 

Romania si nu intr-o tara Occidentala .... . Aceleasi prejudecati timpite aveti
,

aceleasi reflexe execrabile a la Romania, acelasi balcanism mizerabil care a

schimbat atit de negativ structura sufleteasca a romanilor . Multi dintre aceia

care se preteaza la asemenea mizerii de discutii aici, cred ca n-au invatat 

nimic de la societatea asta OCCIDENTALA . Tot timpul acelasi lucru :

                              NEGATIVISM PE TOATA LINIA,

 in alte cuvinte nu vad si eu eu o persoana serioasa care sa incerce sa 

raspunda  cu argumente DECENTE si GINDITE, ELABORATE atunci cind

avem in fata situatii care evident ne defavorizeaza ... Gen opinii a la Keller 
!

Ma intreb cind o sa iesim odata pentru totdeauna din aceasta gindire ABSCONSA !
?...

Oare cind o sa intram in LUMEA CIVILIZATA si o sa aratam prin FAPTELE

PREZENTULUI , CE POATE FII UN ROMAN SI CE PUTEM FACE NOI CA NATIE !!!!

Bateti cimpii ca toti romanii cu fantoma TRECUTULUI, dati exemple tot timpul

din TRECUT . TRAIM IN PREZENT !!! SINTEM CEEA CE SINTEM NU NUMAI

PRIN PERSPECTIVA TRECUTULUI !!! MAI ALES PRIN CEA A PREZENTULUI !!!

TRAIM DIN AMINTIRI .... ! CINE TRAIESTE DIN AMINTIRI DEVINE PSIHOPAT !!!

N-ar fi cazul ca si noi romanii sa iesim din teribilismul nostru specific, vezi
 noi

nu avem de invatat de la nimeni ... Noi sintem destepti, ce avem noi nevoie de

altii ... etc . Am face bine sa reflectam la VIITORUL nostru ca natie si fiecar
e 

in felul lui sa aduca aportul necesar la construirea unei Romanii mai bune 

indiferent unde sintem . E TIMPUL ca noi romanii sa invatam sa NE UNIM,

sa lasam diferentele la o parte  si sa FACEM CEVA . DAR CEVA PALPABIL !!!

......SI ACUM IN PREZENT ptr ca altfel ce tara lasam romanilor ? Nu vedeti ca

noi prin modul nostru de a gindii perpetuuam mizeria poporului nostru ? ...

Sa lasam naiba timpeniile si sa intram in MODERNITATE, sa dam solutii MODERNE

si ACTUALE,  PROBLEMELOR NOASTRE . Sa terminam odata pentru totdeauna

cu toata zizania asta romano-maghiara, sa reglam problema asta politic .

Cu vointa se rezolva TOTUL . Pentru ca lasam problemele NEREZOLVATE

toate se sparg in capul nostru . O rezolvare DECENTA a problemei minoritatii

maghiare din Romania ar evita tot sirul de extremisme maghiare care le stim

cu totii . In fond de ce altii ( adica maghiarii ) , trebuie sa TOLEREZE ceea 

ce romanii tolereaza LA NESFIRSIT ... Foarte bine fac ca devin DURI...

nimeni nu are OBLIGATIA sa TOLEREZE o POLITICA INCOMPETENTA

Mai mult decit oricind, aici in Occident am vazut ce imagine execrabila are

tara noastra . Si nimeni nu face NIMIC ! Guvernantii de la Bucuresti nu au

nici o POLITICA COERENTA ptr a CREEA ADEVARATA IMAGINE A ROMANIEI .

Preocuparea lor este cum sa-i timpeasca pe romanii cu promisiuni si slogane

mizerabile si infecte ! Vezi :

                              Noi VA DAM ! NOI VA FACEM ! .... ETC

     MIZERABILII SE CRED DUMNEZEU !  ( sa ma ierte Dumnezeu ca spun asa )

In fond acesti indivizi ce au de DAT poporului roman ?

Ce, poporul roman e un popor de HANDICAPATI , are nevoie sa le dea cineva

ceva ? POPORUL ARE ! EI TREBUIE SA SLUJEASCA POPORUL SI NU INVERS !

Ei sint acolo ca sa ofere legi care sa creeze oportunitati, ca prin acestea 

romanii sa-si poata creea o viata DECENTA ! Ce fac ei se traduce prin LEGI !

ATIT . A venit timpul sa terminam odata cu superficialismul nostru specific,

"spoim" tot timpul , "incropim" la marea viteza "solutii" , care tin o zi si du
pa 

aceea sintem si mai aproape de prapastie ! Sa terminam odata cu "gindirea asta

gaunoasa" si umflata , care la primul examen al REALITATII ne LASA PE TOTI

IN CURU' GOL ! si ca drept rezultat devenim DISPERATI si vrem sa salvam

ce MAI PUTEM pe ULTIMA SUTA DE METRI .... .

Regret ca va spun asta, dar personal nu vad o iesire a tarii mele din situatia

in care se afla ... Cred ca sintem pierduti ... Nu degeaba cintecul spune :

                              DESTEAPTA_TE ROMANE !!!

Dormim fratilor, si dormim pe PREZENTUL SI VIITORUL NOSTRU ...

in timp ce altii SE MISCA TARE DE TOT . Tocmai de aceea in mod paradoxal

romanii in loc sa aiba parte de ceva mai bun, se trezesc peste noapte cu un

bou ca Ceausescu sau nu stiu care Iliescu si alti ...ESCU care le da o muie 

in cel mai curat sens al cuvintului . Dar atunci fratilor va fii prea tirziu ..
.

Si iara o sa mai vedem Romania aruncata in nu stiu ce problema care ne 

mai intirzie nu stiu citi ani... si uita asa povestea se continua LA NESFIRSIT 
.

.... Si daca mai vine si o dandana din afara tarii, vezi asa un Comunism sau

naiba stie ce se mai pregateste pe la Moscova si Washington, tacimul e 

complet si exact ne mai trebuie un mot ca totul sa fie complet .

Scenariul Nefericirii Romanilor ....

Da, e vina noastra fara drept de apel ! Acum cind putem ridica suferintele

de deasupra capetelor romanilor ne pierdem in neesential ! 

Probabil ca ne meritam soarta ...

Cam atit pe ziua de astazi . Si va rog un lucru, nu va obositi sa -mi trimiteti
 tot

felul de email-uri pline de "dragoste" . N-are sens . De restu' marmelada ....


                                                                         Alex

In article >,  (Andras Kornai)
wrote:

> In article >,  > wrote:
> It is not my goal to defend a system of privilege, such as exists in Hungary
> and many other places of the world, but it is patently unrealistic to lay the
> blame, as Joe does, at the feet of the Communists. 

No patently about it, neither is it unrealistic. It is true that privilege 
existed before, during, and after the communists. But this ignores the 
entire moral promise of communism that it would end such privilege. It also 
ignores the moral implications of the politicization of such privilege. If 
you take power on the promises of a better moral system and all you do is 
increase the corruption of the system while making everybody materially 
worse off, don't you think that there is a moral debt that all those that 
benefitted from the system need to pay. It need not be jail time, nor even 
a legislatively mandated punishment. 

Why not something like a scholarship fund for the elite schools on the basis 
of merit and being a descendent of the politically persecuted during the 
communist period? Take some of the money that you are earning in part due to 
your illegitimate privilege and try in your individual way to make amends 
for your unearned advantages.

> The system was in place
> before, and remained in place after, Communism. It might be hard for Joe to
> believe, but few of the "Ka1da1r Jugend" were brought up as communists.
> I myself have read Solzhenitsin and Orwell long before the obligatory course
> in "scientific socialism" at university, and my views were shaped by the
> former not the latter. 

If you believe in Solzhenitsin's view of communism, how could you have 
continued to accept the privileges granted you by that very system? Would 
you buy products produced by slave labor? Would you patronize a restaurant 
if you knew the waitresses were beaten and paid poorly? What kind of moral 
system permitted you to take your privileges when you knew what produced 
them was wrong, wrong, wrong.

> For the few (and they were few and far between, since
> communism lost all respectability by 1956) children of religious communists
> growing up in the seventies, the communist beliefs of their parents were a
> curse not a blessing, and such children mostly parted ways with their parents
> over the issue.

This is why the utter lack of contrition for your privilege is so bothersome. 
*You say you know* it was an illegitimate system yet you still accepted 
your bit of advantages. Taking advantage of an illegitimate system should 
be recognized as morally wrong. Take a look at your own assumptions, can 
you really live with yourself knowing that others were destroyed or 
severly damaged and as a consequence you prospered? Do you really think 
that not even admitting your complicity and making no effort to heal the 
damage is morally acceptable?

> So for a generation of people who were predominantly neither communist nor
> children of communists the term "Ka1da1r Jugend" is not particularly 
> upsetting, for they know they are not guilty as charged. 

I think this is one of the worse features of people like you. You aren't 
bothered by your unearned privilege. Getting ahead based on your family or 
political connections to an immoral regime isn't something to be ashamed of 
for you. And not seeing any cause for shame, you ignore the damage that was 
caused to an entire generation of people so that you could earn your little 
bit of favoritism later. You got while the getting was good and you see no 
reason to pay anything back now. You, in your one post, have provided a 
practical demonstration of the need for a moral reckoning with the petty 
criminals of communism, of which you are one. Do you deserve a Nurenburg 
trial? No, you don't rate. Do you deserve the scorn of your fellow human 
beings? Yes, until you recognize the evil you participated in and have tried 
to make up the damage.

> It is for this simple reason that these people do not, contrary to what 
> Joe says, try to hide their origins. 

They do not try to hide their origins because their origins are in their 
own eyes and the eyes of their peers, respectable and morally permissible. 
This is what is incomplete in the revolutions of the late 80's against 
communism. The moral base is still intact to put another crop of dictators 
up on top of it. You sir, are a symptom of a very insidious disease that 
will destroy us all if we do not take care. 

Why do I call it a disease? Because the next pied piper that advocates 
an immoral system like communism (but probably not communism) is going 
to find a fertile territory filled with little opportunists like you who 
see no problem in getting illegitimate privilege in exchange for their 
political support. Hitler never could have risen to power without the 
moral hollowing out that occured under Weimar. Now Romania, Hungary, and 
most of the east is filled with moral slugs like you who are Weimarized 
and ready to follow the next charismatic madman.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

Dear Eva S. Balogh,

I enjoyed your last post very much! This took 
the most sense among your posts you have ever written on the Net!

Congratulations!

All the best,

Your true friend,

Tibor O'dor