wrote:
>
>>But, John: 
>>
>>Can a Soviet have buddha-nature?
>>
>>with gasho
>>
>>- nguyen tri duc
>>
>
>A difficulty question.  However, even mindless parasites have a 
>buddha-nature. 

Does not buddha-nature also have ten-thousand mindless parasites?

>Since most of the posts from the Vorobieff bangers appear 
>to operate at that level, I would have to say yes.  

Looking at the face of the Universe
  An old woman smiles.
     The stars know she has finally lost herself
         In the mirror.

>I know it is not 
>apparent but it must be there.  

  Faith by any other name would have its effect.
      She drops the rose in her lap,
          And a galaxy of tears flow outward
               Creating another moment of peaceful suffering.

                                             - nguyen tri duc
                                                    with a gasho

In article >, Adrian Precup-Pop <Adrian.Pr
> writes:
|> Matyas, who likes to hide under an anonymous address, wrote:
why do you care?
|> >even if Romanians had been the majority
|> >some time before WWI, this majority wasn't even 2 to 1.
|> 
|> I learned history in Romania,

So did I. That is I had to learn the Romanian version of the Romanians (and not
of the country) at school. I must admit that I have read other kind of history 
as well. It is too bad for those who only remained with the former.

 I think you had access to more
|> interpretations of history, so maybe you can enlighten us, poorly
|> educated Romanians, when the Romanians have NOT been the majority in
|> Transylvania (I hope you can give us figures more exact than "not even 2
|> to 1").

You quote my statement out of context (in my original posting I was pointing at
the fact that it is speculative to claim that the people gathered in Alba Iulia
on December 1, 1918, represented the majority of the inhabitants of Transylvani
a
(not to mention that in such important decisions plebiscites are more apropriat
e).

Concerning your question: I don't have the numbers at hand but not long ago 
someone posted the results of the first census in Transylvania after 1918 and
the proportion was around 1.5 to 1 (anyway less than 2 to 1, which was my claim
).
On the  other hand you must be aware of the fact theat between the withdrawel o
f
the Romans and the XIII-th century there is no hard evidence for the presence
of the Romanians in Transylvania (not even the Romanian history books point out
any).

|> 
|> By the way, I understood from you and Joe Panon that Hungarians and
|> Szeklers are not the same kind of stuff,

I don't know where did you get this (quote). This claim is ususllu made by
those who want to show that there are much less Hungarians in Romania than
there really are (e.g. the Romanian government). Claiming that the "Szekely"-s
are not Hungarians is exactly like saying that the "olteni", "oseni",
"moti", "moldoveni" are not Romanians.

 so maybe you should split the
|> percentages for them. Also, do not forget to give us the percentage of
|> Jews counted as Hungarians.

Why should I know that?

|> 
|> Maybe you can give us the percentage of the non-Hungarian population of
|> Hungary in 1918, after Trianon, and compare with the percentage of the
		    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> same population now. Where did those millions go?

Which millions? You really should see a specialist.

[...]

 You keep on talking about unfulfilled promises of the
|> Romanian government after 1918,

care to quote me?

 did Hungary make any promises in 1940? 

No, so it didn't have to keep them, whereas Romania did make promises, but ...

|> 
|> Adrian (P)
|> 
|> 


Matyas (L)
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 (Constantin Donea) wrote:

>Or aren't USA any more both the motherland and the fatherland of the
>democracy in the world?
>
>Constantin Donea
>
>
>
>
Sometimes you really do say surprisingly silly things.  

Democracy, as far as we know, was first practised in ancient Greece, 
several millenia earlier than the discovery of North America.  The US 
(and Canada)  both derive their democratic traditions from England 
mainly, as well as other Norther European countries.  (Here in New York 
City, our first city charter was drawn up by the Dutch).

> Scott Laws wrote:
>However you might 
>take the recent vote in quebec as a motive to stop lingual diversity in 
>transylvania.  This has happened in the united states where a congress 
>man (from my state even)as a result of recent event in Canada has 
>introduced a law that will effectly outlaw the teaching of lower level 
>classes in languages other than english.

Joe Pannon wrote:
|The situation in the US and in Romania is not comparable. Hungarians in
|Transylvania are not recent immigrants there as those in the US who want
|bilingual education for themselves.  There is a difference in how they
|became strangers in the respective countries: in one case the border
|moved and the people stayed, in the other the people moved and the
|border stayed. 

The Romanians in Transylvania are not recent immigrants either. Relative to
the Native American *Indians* the Europeans are recent immigrants -- things
evolved and voila, English becomes the dominant language. If 5 million
Hungarians decide to immigrate to Montana, perhaps the state legislature
will deny the Hungarian fact of their state? This would be right?

|When I immigrated to the US, it would not have crossed
|my mind that somehow the natives owed me the maintenance of my Hungarian
|culture.  Is this such a difficult distinction to make?
|Joe Pannon

The Native American Indians didn't owe anyone the maintenance of English
culture, but look what happened.

There is a difference between the state apparatus taking measures to
maintain the status quo by preventing certain features of an evolutionary
process, and a state which does not interfere. In Canada, cultural
diversity is encouraged. (Quebec is less encouraging in this matter, or
perhaps more diffidently selective) Evolution is permitted to take its
course. Vancouver is gaining a considerable Asian demographic, and it will
not be long before Asians become the dominating factor in the lower
mainland of British Columbia. Things will change (evolve). This is not
something that will be harmful to Canada. Quite the opposite I believe.

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Charles Vamossy wrote:
>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?

Scott Laws wrote:
>    They would loose so does it matter?

True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >
,
Paul S. Markovits > wrote:
>Please check this out. Latest information tells that the issue is a non 
>authorized  re broadcasting for comercial purposes by a local cable 
>company in Timisoara. Journalist friends from Timisoara told me that this 
>might be related to the dispute of to cable companies in Timisoara. One 
>of the companies turned in the other for non authorized re broadcasting. 

This would only be an issue if the satellite broadcaster insisted on such
authorization.  However, that's not the case, since the purpose of the
broadcast is to reach Hungarians outside Hungary.  The uproar over the
ban also is an indication that the problem is the Romanian censorship,
not Hungarian authorization.

Joe

Wishful thoughts, Wally. 

I know this is a part of the West's plan for the Eastern Europe - you 
can see it in "real-politik", the ambiguously identified "new world 
order", the attitudes towards Romania and towards its real and false 
problems, images created world-wide about romanians (by the way, I can 
feel the results of these clichees or ambiguous but negative image,
almost every day of my life), in economic actions (determined by 
attitudes) vis-a-vis different countries (ex. investments, travel visas), 
the biass in mass-media, etc.

For romanians - inside or abroad -, it is understood this is a fate 
with 2 tragical facets/alternatives : 
1) disregarded, underestimated and "black-shipped" by the West (but 
always fighting with the greatest love and hope to be trated more fairly, 
to be sooner or later integrated, our value and potential 
prooved);
2) possibly destroyed by the russians (if we are abandoned again, as
after WWII).

Anyway, in spite of your opinion, we are not at all deserving anyone's
despise (your's first). We are a decent people and we don't like to see 
Romania split (separated), neither by external maneuvres (attempts were 
made, even recently), neither by "smart" suggestions made by so called 
"benevolent, non-prejudiced and well-intentioned" people like you.

I see this kind of people "with vision" every day, barking about the 
human rights violation by the barbaric peoples in Balcans - the most
savage being the Serbs, but what about the others, like those detestable
Romanians ("..I think they're in fact gypsies"), who are the least 
civilized, similar to some average africans, etc... -. 

Yes, Transylvania might be encouraged to seccede (economically, and by 
behind the curtain promisses and alliances, from abroad and not by 
Hungary alone). It doesn't even imply an act of civilization, it would 
imply only dirty maneuvres, conspiracies, intrigues, exacerbating old 
divisions, then blaming them on (newly created, intra-roamnians) 
divisions, etc. And you defend this ? 

The Romanians in Transylvania - as I know them - will not want to 
separate, now or in 100 years from now. 
Anyway, I want to finish, I don't know if it's worth explaining these 
too much, you refuse to understand or to feel any point made.

In any case, I still thank you for some good and real objective stands
taken - I know it was hard, yo had to fake some objectivity, to make the
...abjections about us more credible -. What shows - I'd really hope to
be true - is that you are - or could be - a nice fellow.

For this - and for the funny and non-aggressive stuff :

Best regards !

Signed: Khomeiny, Saddam's cousin, Yel-Tzin, Mobutu Sesse Seko 
       (not Secu),etc...

Pick which one you like, or another one, as you wish (but not more abject
than I've already suggested).

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>Does this mean, that privatelly owned cable networks in towns and
>villages where only Hungarians live, are forbidden to broadcast the 
>programmes of DUNA TV which otherwise can be received anywhere
>in Europe from the satellite of ASTRA ?

That's how I read it, even if the government just issued a denial.  (See
my other msg in this thread.)  Too bad that only a few Hungarians may be
able to afford a satellite TV dish antenna for direct reception of the
signal.  Most of them have to rely on some cable company distributing
the DUNA signal.

The ironic thing in this whole affair may be that the negative publicity
created by this controversy may actually force the Romanian government
to forget about censoring that TV signal via cable, thus their current
denial may look like genuine.  But that's the kind of face saving for
the government most Hungarians probably would not mind.

Joe

 (Gary D. Fadling) wrote:
>	I can't help but wonder, given a choice, if the residents (regardless of 
>ethnicity) of Transylvania might not tell both governments (Hungarian and 
>Romanian) to take themselves elsewhere.  It's been my experience that most of 
>the local residents are a pretty indepedent minded lot, and would just as soon
 
>be left to their own devices.  From what I could see, the Romanian government 
>takes much more than it gives out, and it remains to be seen if the Hungarian 
>government would be any better!
>
>
I think your suggestion would be more than welcome.  Indeed, 
Transylvanian history shows more freedom, progress, tolerance at a time 
when both Hungary and Romania were dominated by the Ottoman Empire than 
any other time.

 (Constantin Donea) wrote:
>In article >,  (Gary D. Fadling) 
writes:
>>From what I could see, the Romanian government 
>>takes much more than it gives out, and it remains to be seen if the Hungarian
 
>>government would be any better!
>
>
>We've already seen it's not, and thank you, but we aren't eager to test
>whatever changed in this "new" Hungarian government!
>
>Constantin Donea
>
>
>
No responsible person is advocating changing the borders.

 (Alexander Bossy) wrote:
 Go to your 
>university library.  Ask your librarian to help you find books on 
>Romanian history.  Look for any book in English or French published since 
>1980.  

Regardless of the subject, I somehow find it difficult to accept that any 
history book published during the Ceucescu regime would find a great deal 
of credibility.

 (Alexander Bossy) wrote:
 wrote:
>
>: Since when is it that Romanians determine who represents Transylvania
>: Hungarians' interests?
>
>	Since 1918, when the Transylvanian Hungarians became Romanian 
>citizens. ;-)
>

>	Alexander

So much for democracy in Romania.  

Even the ethnic Hungarians' interests, accoriding to Alexander, must be 
represented by Romanians.

Although there are between 1.5 to 2 million Hungarians live there 
(depends on your source), but not a single one can entrusted to represent 
their own interests.

Is it a wonder, then, that they are not exactly happy campers?

Charles Vamossy

(Alexander Bossy) writes:
|>   Transylvania came under Romanian jurisdiction because there was a 
|> Romanian majority.  Unification was supported on December 1, 1918 in 
|> Alba Iulia - and that convention was far more democratic than anything 
|> that the Hungarian government offered before 1918.
|>   I think that it is important that we all face facts and recognize 
|> that, although Alba Iulia wasn't the plebicite that maybe it should have 
|> been, it nevertheless DID EXPRESS the views of the majority of 
|> Transylvania's inhabitants.

>Hi Alexander!
>Several weeks ago in one of my answers to previous thread I asked a
>question on this issue that nobody answered. So here it is again:
>
>How many people did gather at Alba Iulia on that 1st of December, 1918
>(please try to document it). What percentage of the Romanians inhabitants
>of Transylvania and what percentage of the total population did this
>represent? Were they all current Transylvanian inhabitants? How did they
>find out about the event and how did they get there?
>Matyas

Oh very good. Alexander calls for the facing of facts. Well, I'd like to
learn the facts on this. How DID IT EXPRESS the views of the majority? How
were the views of the majority ascertained? I smell political intrigue in
this event. I smell contrivance, perhaps. Let's answer Matyas' exceedingly
pertinent questions.

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

From:  (Matyas) AKA Supreme BS-er of Scria
Reply-To:       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Subject: Re: Quebec and/or Transylvania
Date: Thu,  9 Nov 1995 23:22:32 UTC

 (Constantin Donea)writes:
|> CHARLES > writes:
[...]
|> >If Romania is truly a democratic nation serious about joining the ranks 
|> >of Western democracies, the answer surely must be yes.  
|> 
|> Again, you must be kidding.

^Right, you must be kidding, who has ever heared about Romania being a
^democratic nation at all ;-)              ^^^^^^
                                                 \
                                                  Isn't this the way you
                                                  spelled "heard" in your
                                                  juvenile "15" postings
                                                  to me Dan-Razvan Ghica?

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>Canada, much to it's credit, supported Quebec's claim to language and 
>>culture, and wrote it into their constitution.  This is so much so, that 
>>today, if anything, it is the French in Quebec who restrict English.

From:  (Scott)
>However you might 
>take the recent vote in quebec as a motive to stop lingual diversity in 
>transylvania. This has happened in the united states where a congress 
>man (from my state even)as a result of recent event in Canada has 
>introduced a law that will effectly outlaw the teaching of lower level 
>classes in languages other than english.  Spanish is the target of this 
>law and the reasoning is if you allow a distinct culture to enter and not 
>assimalate then you will eventually face division and the cultures 
>clash.  I would like to avoid flames by pointing out that I do NOT agree 
>with this law and feel that americans being mostly mono-lingual is a 
>disadvantage.  

I tend to agree with you. My conception of Canada includes the French
fact. While I am unilingual English, my cultural identity would be
impoverished if Quebec chose to seperate from Canada. The French language
has been visible and audible virtually every day of my life. It is a
living and florishing culture thriving within Canada. Perhaps it will lead
to division, seperation. I hope not. If the English majority had
historically chosen the U.S.A. model, then Quebec would have evolved into
a backwater of fiddle players and northern versions of Cajun cookers. The
large French fact in the southern states and in the New England States are
exceedingly pale cousins to their French counter-parts in Canada. This
erosion of French culture in the USA diminished the overall cultural
wealth of the USA. I much prefer the bonne risque that Canada took.

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Dan Pop wrote:
>Unlike Canada and Switzerland, Romania is not a federal country.

It is a unitary state. Yes we know. By the will of the Romanian people, or
at least by the will of Romanian kings and dictators. In any event, it was
hardly a consequence of a enlightened democratic decision.

>Besides, Transylvania doesn't have a Hungarian majority (otherwise,
>Transylvania would have never been given as "war booty" to Romania --
>some people constantly forget that Transylvania went to Romania as the
>result of a selfdetermination process).

What self-determination process? When was the referendum held? Who held
it? Who could vote in it? Once again -- what self-determination?

>The Quebec province does have a French majority.  So, I fail to see any
>similarity between Quebec and Transylvania. I must be missing something.

While it may well be true that you are missing something (I don't want to
go into details) there are similarities as well as disimilarities. This is
the case in all things. Perhaps a larger context -- Canada has an
*English* majority with a *French* minority. Now this is more similar to
the situation of the *Magyar* minority and *Romanian* majority. Now we can
talk about the florishing of French culture within Canada and the
disimilarity of the Magyar culture florishing in Transylvania. So Dan, can
we talk now?

>>If Romania is truly a democratic nation serious about joining the ranks 
>>of Western democracies, the answer surely must be yes.  

>How about other Western democracies, like France, which don't even 
>admit having ethnic minorities?  Romania is considerably better off WRT
>minority rights than many Western democracies.  

How about the Western democracy, like Canada? Canada is vastly better off
with minority rights than Romania. Can we talk?

>This fact was acknowledged by most Western delegations which came to
>Romania to investigate the situation of the minorities, especially as a
>result of the complaints of the Hungarians.

The members of these *Western* delegations came from European countries
which "don't even admit having ethnic minorities" let alone minority
problems. Why would they extend to Romania what they deny to their own
minorities? They can't be seen as setting any kind of precedent, so it is
better to pat Romania on the head and pretend there is no problem.

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Ridiculously small point you make, Joe ! 
Keep on ignoring the important facts presented by Adrian, Dan and the 
other "olahs"! 
Is this "smart" tactic working hungarians are bitching lies about Romania 
(and its people) in front of the world community, ignoring and 
disrespecting the truth - of course, if it comes from the other side 
and it does't suite your interests ? 
Do you care how bad and cowardish it looks what (many of) you are 
constantly doing ? Don't you think that you simply destroy any sincere 
dialogue, respect (possibly friendship) that romanians could have
for you in a fair-play, un-biassed change of ideas ? We are easy to
made friends to and ready to forgive the bad things from the past 
- although we don't forget any of the past, as you can see, but not to  
take revenge, only to acknowledge or existance in that part of the 
world-. 
But your constant aim is only the conflict - and for reaching to this, 
you continuously provoke and bite -. Maybe only this suits your strategy 
for acieving you final goal, at any price. Sometimes I am scared to think
what (who) are your obstacles for this and what you could to to eliminate 
those... obstacles ! If truth, evidence, good-will, friendly hands, 
respect and reciprocity are denied, what follows ? Maybe, deny of... 
existance - remember Ip and Traznea... -.

In article >,  (George Szaszvari
) says:
>
>In article >,  (Dan Pop) says:
>
>>This diversity is no longer what it used to be.  The Saxons have left,
>>the Jews have left, so Transylvania is inhabited today mostly by Romanians,
>>Hungarians and Gypsies.
>
>I know.
>
>>And the primary reason it is unlikely is that the Romanians, who form the
>>absolute majority of Transylvania's population (by a large margin) don't
>>want it.  Looks like a very good reason to me.
>
>..and to me: but Romanians are not in that large a majority in ALL 
>areas, although Ceacescu's cronies worked hard at diminishing Romanian 
>minorities by *encouraging* migrations of various groups. That's why 
>I wrote *unlikely*.

It is necessary to correct my last posting on this thread. One of my
comments is ambiguous, viz: *diminishing Romanian minorities* should
read: *diminishing and dispersing non-Romanian majorities*.

BTW are there are any Hungarian locations left in Transylvania that
escaped the Ceacescu policy of resettlement to artificially create
Romanian majorities where they did not exist before?

George


*** George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK ***
             * Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy *  *
    >Please sell me your old Commodore64 hardware, software, books & mags<
            >Interested in secondhand chess books? Ask for my list<

 (CSSA-UCLA) wrote:
Hi Please support this bill and keep the foreigners out...

>Hi,

>I am forwarding this mesg to this news group, since I believe many of the
>readers will be affected if Senate immigration bill S1394 passes. 

>Thanks for attention. 
>- Yu




>		        Pass Senate Bill S1394


>==============================================================================
=
>1. Good BILL, BAD NEW FOR ALL F-1 STUDENTS
>2. ACT NOW.  EMAIL, PHONE, FAX
>3. SAMPLE LETTER PROVIDED
>4. A SUMMARY OF THE BILL BY NAFSA  
>5. WEB SITE: http://caledonian.cs.ucla.edu/~cssa
>==============================================================================
=


>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> BAD NEWS, GOOD BILL
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--


>Suppose you have F-1 visa, if someone tells you the following:

>    * You need 2 years experience outside of the U.S. before you can apply
>    	for H-1B ( called H-1 by most people ) visa.
>    * Your employer has to pay 5% of your first years' salary and benefit and 
>        more afterward, in order to hire you as an H-1B worker;
>    * To get Labor Certificate, you must have THREE years of experience in the
 
>	profess ion outside the U.S. after obtaining advanced degree or equivalent, 
>	or FIVE year s outside the U.S. if you have a baccalaureate degree.
>    * You employer has to pay 25% of your annual salary and benefit as a newly
-
>	imposed fee for your Labor Certificate.


>What would you think?


>And the best is, Alan Simpson, Chair of the Senate Immigration Subcommittee, 
>wants to see his bill

>   * gets marked up by Nov 13, while the bill was introduced on Nov 3. 

>   * and eventually gets implemented by Oct 1, 1996.


>Now, what would you think?


>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>   ACT NOW. HERE IS WHAT YOU CAN DO.
>	- Email to each of the senators involved 
>	- Email to 
>	- Fax or phone each of the senators involved
>	- Spread the words, and make your friend to act also
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--


>* ACTION I: EMAIL the members of Senate Immigration Subcommittee

>     Alan Simpson, Chair  R-WY   
>     Charles Grassley, R-IA      
>     Jon Kyl, R-AZ               
>     Arlen Specter, R-PA         Not available
>     Edward Kennedy,  D-MA       
>     Paul Simon,  D-IL           
>     Dianne Fenstein, D-CA       


>  To make it convenient, we also created an mail aliase for you 
>	SO YOU CAN SEND LETTER TO ALL THE ABOVE 6 EMAIL ADDRESSES AT ONCE.

>  All you need to do is send your letter to .


>* ACTION II: Call or FAX the members of Senate Immigration Subcommittee

>                                    Phone           Fax
>     Alan Simpson, Chair  R-WY   202 224-3424    224-1315
>     Charles Grassley, R-IA      202 224-3744    224-6020
>     Jon Kyl, R-AZ               202 224-4521    224-2207
>     Arlen Specter, R-PA         202 224-4254    224-1893
>     Edward Kennedy,  D-MA       202 224-4543    224-2417
>     Paul Simon,  D-IL           202 224-2152    224-0868
>     Dianne Fenstein, D-CA       202 224-3841    228-3954

>* Equally important, tell your friends to do so also. 


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Here is a simple sample letter:
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------


>November        , 1995

>Senator__________________________
>The U.S. Congress, Capitol Hill
>Washington D.C.

>Honorable Senator ___________________________:

>I strongly approve of Simpson's bill S 1394, and  firmly  believe it is
>an anti-immigration bill, which is substantially against immigrants,
>and is for the common good of all US Citizens

>I hereby appeal to you :   please vote yes on  S1394 !

>Sincerely,

>(Signed)
>Resident of
>US Mailing Address:



>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  More detailed information 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>- Find the on line text of S1394: 
>      * ftp://ftp.loc.gov/pub/thomas/c104/s1394.is.FTP 
>      * Or to find status information, go to http://thomas.loc.gov/, select "1
04th Congress
>       Bills", or "Bill Summary and Status for the 104th Congress", then do a 
search on
>       S1394. 

>- Please watch activities in the Senate (gopher://ftp.senate.gov/),  
>	and the House ( http://www.house.gov/Legproc.html ).





> ==============================================================

>     Following is a detailed summary of the provisions which
>impact international education that are in the Immigration Reform
>Act of 1995 (S.1394).  A markup of this bill may occur as early
>as next week.


>================================================================
>=========== Summary of Key Provisions of S.1394 ================
>================================================================
>                    "Immigration Reform Act of 1995"
>           (as introduced by Senator Simpson November 3, 1995)

>         Summary of Provisions Impacting International Education

>                            November 8, 1995


>I.   Foreign Students.

>     A.   Adds new section ( 214(l)) to Immigration and
>          Nationality Act titled "Admission of Student Visa
>          Holders."

>          1.   Student shall be admitted for period of study "at
>               the specified academic level."

>          2.   Student shall be expected to make "normal
>               progress" toward obtaining his degree.

>          3.   Attorney General may grant "limited extension of
>               stay" to allow student to complete studies beyond
>               the period "normally required."

>     B.   Changes in definition of "students."

>          1.   Access to language programs.  Students seeking
>               English language training lasting less than six
>               months shall enter on visitor visas
>               ( 101(a)(15)(B)) and not student visas
>               ( 101(a)(15)(F)).

>          2.   Public primary and secondary schools foreign
>               students would no longer require a student visa;
>               private primary and secondary school foreign
>               students, however, would.

>     C.   Pilot Program for Tracking Foreign Students.

>          1.   By January 1, 1998, Attorney General and Secretary
>               of State shall jointly develop and conduct a pilot
>               program to collect electronically data on select
>               students.

>          2.   Pilot program shall cover nationals of at least
>               five countries (or any more the Attorney General
>               and Secretary of State may designate).

>          3.   All of the following information must be
>               collected:

>               a.   Whether an alien applying for an F, J, or M
>                    visa has been issued an I-20 by an approved
>                    academic institution, and the name of that
>                    institution.

>               b.   The date and place the visa was issued, the
>                    category of visa, and the college/university
>                    for which the visa was issued.

>               c.   Whether the alien is enrolled in an approved
>                    college/university, and the name of that
>                    institution.

>               d.   The student's current campus address.

>               e.   Whether the student is in "good standing" at
>                    an approved institution, is pursuing a full
>                    course of study, is making "normal progress"
>                    toward a degree, has withdrawn/been
>                    expelled/suspended/placed on academic
>                    probation/has transferred/graduated/or
>                    attendance has otherwise terminated.

>               f.   Whether the alien has been
>                    expelled/suspended/placed on academic
>                    probation/subjected to other disciplinary
>                    action as a result of being convicted of a
>                    crime.

>          4.   Information will be shared with U.S.
>               embassies/consulates and INS officers.

>          5.   The Secretary of State shall impose and collect a
>               fee on all F, J, and M visas issued; the Attorney
>               General shall do likewise on all changes of status
>               to such classifications.

>               The fee will begin on April 1, 1997, and will
>               initially be limited to no more than $100.  Funds
>               collected shall be used to pay the costs of
>               carrying out this pilot program.

>          6.   A joint report by the Secretary of State and
>               Attorney General will be required not later than
>               five years after commencement of the pilot
>               program.

>          7.   Not later than six months after completing that
>               report, the program will begin to be expanded to
>               cover the nationals of all countries, with all
>               foreign students subject within one year of the
>               report's submission to Congress.

>               The fee may be revised at any time after this
>               report is submitted.

>          8.   Information to be collected will be provided by
>               colleges and universities as a condition of their
>               approval to participate in the foreign student
>               program.  If a college/university refuses to
>               participate, they will not be able to issue I-20s.


>   II.    H-1B Provisions.

>     A.   Eliminates "dual intent" for H and L nonimmigrants;
>          they will once again have to establish they are not
>          intending immigrants before being allowed to enter the
>          U.S.

>     B.   Maximum validity of H-1Bs limited to a total of three
>          years (instead of the current six).

>     C.   New fee required by employers (which aliens cannot be
>          assessed by employers) to be paid into specially
>          designated private sector funds dedicated to increasing
>          the competitiveness of U.S. workers and reducing
>          employers reliance on foreign workers.

>          1.   Fee will consist of a percentage of the alien's
>               annual compensation (including wages, benefits,
>               and other compensation).

>          2.   Year 1 = 5 percent; Year 2 = 7.5%; and Year 3 = 10
>               percent.

>          3.   Employers who do not pay the fee will be subject
>               to  a civil penalty of $5000 for each violation,
>               payment of the late fee, and disqualification for
>               one year from petitioning for any immigrant or
>               nonimmigrant workers.

>     D.   Attestation Changes.

>          1.   Wage Level Terminology.
>               a.   Term to be modified from "wages" to
>                    "compensation (including wages, benefits, and
>                    all other compensation)".

>               b.   "Actual Wage" redefined as "100 percent of
>                    the prevailing level of compensation"
>                    (including benefits, etc.).

>               c.   "Prevailing Wage" redefined as "105 percent
>                    of the prevailing level of compensation"
>                    (including benefits, etc.).

>          2.   No Layoff Attestation Required.
>               a.   No layoff of other workers with substantially
>                    equivalent, or greater, qualifications
>                    (including experience) within 6 months
>                    preceding the date of filing the LCA, unless
>                    the employer pays actual compensation of at
>                    least 105% of the arithmetic mean of the
>                    highest compensation earned by such laid off
>                    employees.

>               b.   No layoff within the 90 days following filing
>                    the LCA, unless same requirements as above
>                    are met.

>               c.   "Laid off" defined as meaning the employee's
>                    loss of employment other than a discharge for
>                    cause or a voluntary departure or voluntary
>                    retirement.

>          3.   Recruitment of U.S. workers attestation required.

>          4.   Steps to end dependence on foreign workers
>               attestation required, including the following:

>               a.   Operating a program of training for existing
>                    employees (or funding employees'
>                    participation in such programs elsewhere).

>               b.   Providing career development programs.

>               c.   Paying U.S. workers compensation that is
>                    equal to more than 105 percent of the
>                    compensation paid to persons similarly
>                    employed in the geographic area.

>               d.   Providing facilities and services to increase
>                    to productivity of U.S. workers, in order to
>                    decrease the number of aliens who are needed.

>               e.   Providing reasonable opportunities for
>                    meaningful increases in compensation to U.S.
>                    workers.

>               Employers must decrease by at least 10 percent in
>               two consecutive years the percentage of his total
>               number of nonimmigrant workers.

>     E.   Experience Requirement:  At least 2 years experience
>          must be obtained outside the U.S. after obtaining the
>          most recently received degree before an alien can
>          obtain an H visa.

>     F.   Prevailing Wage Determination:  Shall not be considered
>          to vary depending on the characteristics of the
>          employer (including whether or not the employer is an
>          institution of higher education), except where the
>          Secretary of Labor finds that working conditions or the
>          functional requirements of the job warrant such a
>          distinction.

>  III.    Employment-Based Permanent Immigration.

>     A.   Immigrants Exempt from Labor Certification.

>          1.   Up to 90,000 aliens with "extraordinary ability,"
>               including but not limited to professors and
>               researchers, provided

>               a.   They have extraordinary ability in the
>                    sciences, arts, education, business, or
>                    athletics, which has been demonstrated by
>                    sustained national or international acclaim
>                    and their achievements have been recognized
>                    in the field through extensive documentation.

>               b.   Or they have the potential for this
>                    achievement that has been shown through
>                    extensive documentation of their record over
>                    a 10 year period after the completion of
>                    formal education or training, including their
>                    receipt of internationally recognized prizes
>                    and the testimony of appropriate experts.

>               They must also seek to continue work in the area
>               of extraordinary ability and their admission must
>               substantially benefit prospectively the United
>               States.

>          2.   Also exempt are multinational executives and
>               managers, investors, and certain special
>               immigrants (e.g. religious workers).


>     B.   Immigrants Subject to Labor Certification Requirement.

>          1.   Aliens who are members of the professions holding
>               advanced degrees.

>               a.   Alien must have three years of experience in
>                    the profession outside the U.S. after
>                    obtaining advanced degree or equivalent.

>               b.   Alien's services must be sought by an
>                    employer.

>               c.   Alien must pass an English literacy test.


>          2.   Professionals with baccalaureate degrees.

>               a.   Alien must have five years of experience
>                    outside the U.S. after receipt of their
>                    degree.

>               b.   Alien's services must be sought by an
>                    employer.

>               c.   Alien must pass an English literacy test.


>          3.   Skilled Workers.


>     C.   Repeals Diversity/Lottery Program.

>     D.   Conditional Residency Program.

>          1.   Establishes conditional residency program (similar
>               to what is in place for immigration based on
>               marriage to a U.S. citizen).

>          2.   Alien will be notified 90 days before the second
>               anniversary of his obtaining his conditional
>               status.

>          3.   If alien no longer employed by same employer, or
>               is not paid the attested wage, status will be
>               terminated.

>          4.   Waiver of this requirement after two years is
>               available if the alien was not paid the attested
>               wage, for reasons beyond the alien's control
>               (including layoffs and business failure), or if
>               employment ended due to unfair labor practice by
>               employer.

>     E.   Eliminates Special Handling (currently found at
>           212(a)(5)(A)(ii)).

>     F.   New Fee Required.

>          1.   Employers must pay a fee equal to 25 percent of
>               the value of the immigrant worker's annual
>               compensation into a private fund certified by the
>               Secretary of Labor.

>          2.   The fund will be dedicated to increasing the
>               competitiveness of U.S. workers and reducing the
>               dependence of employers on alien workers.

>          3.   This fee cannot be passed onto alien workers.

>     G.   Provides for Certifications of Shortages/Surpluses.

> ========================================================================

Rutgers University's Institute for Hungarian Studies and the Center for
Russian, Central and East European Studies are pleased to invite you to the
next event in their joint public lecture series, this time co-sponsored with
the university's new Center for the Study of Jewish Life:


		JEWS AND THE MAKING OF MODERN HUNGARY	

				by

			   Andras Gero

	(Professor and Chair, Department for Economic and Social History,
	Eotvos Lorand University, Budapest; Visiting Professor,
	Department of History, University of Pennsylvania; Professor,
	Central European University, Editor-in-Chief of the Hungarian urban
	studies journal _Budapesti Negyed_)


	To be introduced by Professor Ziva Galili, 
	Chair, History Department, Rutgers University

	place:	Rutgers University, New Brunswick
		College Avenue Campus 
		Browers Commons, Auditorium A

	date:	November 15, 1995
	time:	6-7.30 pm

> ==========================================================================

> ========================================================================

Rutgers University's Institute for Hungarian Studies and the Center for
Russian, Central and East European Studies are pleased to invite you to the
next event in their joint public lecture series, this time co-sponsored with
the university's new Center for the Study of Jewish Life:


		JEWS AND THE MAKING OF MODERN HUNGARY	

				by

			   Andras Gero

	(Professor and Chair, Department for Economic and Social History,
	Eotvos Lorand University, Budapest; Visiting Professor,
	Department of History, University of Pennsylvania; Professor,
	Central European University, Editor-in-Chief of the Hungarian urban
	studies journal _Budapesti Negyed_)


	To be introduced by Professor Ziva Galili, 
	Chair, History Department, Rutgers University

	place:	Rutgers University, New Brunswick
		College Avenue Campus 
		Browers Commons, Auditorium A

	date:	November 15, 1995
	time:	6-7.30 pm

> ==========================================================================

Hello Net,
 
  I don't know if this is the best place for this message, and for
other various reasons, I don't even know if it will arrive, but here
goes.
 
  I'm interested in living close to Pecs, Hungary for a little while. 
I'm not really interested in immigrating to Hungary, but I have neither
the financial means nor the political clout, in my own opinion, to 
arrange any long-term stay in Hungary without the assistance of some 
organized body, such as a government organization like the Peace Corps.
I understand that the Peace Corps offers teaching programs to qualified
volunteers on an extremely competative basis.  I would be more than 
willing, in all honesty, to volunteer on a 2 year assignment as a 
teacher, perhaps teaching English or Mathematics, as I currently hold
a B.S.Mathematics from the University of Texas at Austin.  
  However, I wonder if the Peace Corps would have me if they understood
that my primary reason for going to Hungary was not to do volunteer 
work, but for personal reasons.  But the fact is, I am sure that I 
would do well as a volunteer all the same.  In fact, the only reason 
that I chose in the writing of this message to subordinate the idea
of being a volunteer is because I don't want to close any doors; i.e, 
if I could get to Pecs, Hungary, by other means, I would certainly 
take those opportunities as well.
  If anyone has any ideas for me, please let me know--and I mean *any*
ideas.  For example, if you don't know of any organizations which could
help me, but while reading all of this you thought of something which
may seem completely foolish or ridiculous, go ahead and tell me anyway.
I'd love to hear it.  
  Thanks, 
 
Christopher Arthur

 
PS, If it isn't too much trouble, please send a copy of any public
replies to my email address as well because the system through which 
I gain internet access doesn't allow me to read the USENET.  I can 
read it using a friends computer, but I can't post on his.  Don't 
ask me why because it's kind of complicated.  Also, the address from
which I've posted this message was scheduled to be deleted on the 6th.
This means that it may no longer exist by the time you decide to reply.
Until the point when it's deleted, however, I'm having the mail forwarded
to the fidonet address.  Thanks.

In article >, CHARLES VAMOSSY 
hi.com> says:

>I can't help but reflect on the recent vote in Quebec and how a similar 
>vote might have taken place in Transylvania. ..[snip].....

Personally, I would love to see Transylvania exist as an independent 
multi-cultural pluralistic state incorporating all the rich diversity
that makes it such a wonderful place (a diversity that is being 
eroded by greedy and moronic political pressures and scare-mongering 
on ALL sides.) But this utopian dream is unlikely.....(sigh)...

The Quebec question is not really analogous with Transylvania. Quebec 
is surrounded by Anglophones and relies (too?) heavily on US influences. 
Transylvania is much more complex. 

*** George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK ***
             * Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy *  *
    >Please sell me your old Commodore64 hardware, software, books & mags<
            >Interested in secondhand chess books? Ask for my list<

"HIX MOKA" > wrote:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Issue____________: *** MOKA 874 ***
> Date_____________: Thu Nov  9 00:58:03 EST 1995
> Publisher________: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
> Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Send-Articles-To_: >
> Subscribe________: >   or >
> Unsubscribe______: > or >
> Help_____________: >
> Supervisor_______: >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> HIXWEB___________: http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/  or  http://hix.mit.edu/
> ARENA____________: telnet hix.hungary.com
> HUDIR____________: http://www.hungary.com/hudir/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Tartalomjegyzek:
> ----------------
> 
> Felado :  [Romania]
> Temakor: viccek ( 5 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Romania]
> Temakor: abszolut ( 17 sor )
> 
> Felado : VICCEK
> Temakor: hulye skot ( 9 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Austria]
> Temakor: ujabb viccek ( 27 sor )
> 
> Felado : Riesz Ferenc
> Temakor: Re: MOKKA # valahany ( 28 sor )
> 
> Felado : Meszaros Laszlo (Budapestrol)
> Temakor: A rejtely nyitja ( 2 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Tunisia]
> Temakor: Re: *** MOKA *** #873 ( 7 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Germany]
> Temakor: windows 95 ( 13 sor )
> 
> Felado : Furi Nandor [Svedorszag]                         HBSENF   DS
> Temakor: RE: qltura                                       HBSENF ( 22 sor )
> 
> Felado : Furi Nandor [Svedorszag]                         HBSENF   DS
> Temakor: Rendorvicc                                       HBSENF ( 21 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Germany]
> Temakor: rejtveny ( 10 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Germany]
> Temakor: pekingi kacsa ( 20 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: MOKA    To whom (Eszter) it may concern ( 42 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: ludens... ( 20 sor )
> 
> Felado : Nagy Tibor
> Temakor: Koszonet... ( 7 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: A tokomet a cenzuraba! ( 9 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Sid Vicsovszky Egypercesek ( 6 sor )
> 
> Felado : Hlavathy Zoltan
> Temakor: Kontra Kojaknek ( 9 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: vicc ( 3 ) ( 3 sor )
> 
> Felado : Juhos Szilveszter
> Temakor: Re: Vagy ( 22 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Orvos viccc ( 12 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Definicio ( 12 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Lord Epping's ( 22 sor )
> 
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: *** BEMUTATKOZAS *** ( 34 sor )
> 
> Felado : Weisz Balint the W-Iceberg )
> Temakor: ESZTER-nek! ( 43 sor )
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Romania]
> Temakor: viccek ( 5 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 07:20:47 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Ki az abszolut magas?
> Akinek a hata kozepen a hidegrazas megall pihenni.
> 
> Mi az abszolut technikai zavar?
> Lifttel kell menni,mert a lepcso nem mukodik.
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Romania]
> Temakor: abszolut ( 17 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 07:20:54 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Ki az abszolut villanyszerelo?
> Aki aramszunetben is rovidzarlatot csinal.
> 
> Mi az abszolut kaszkadorseg?
> Leugrassz a tizedik emeletrol es megkapaszkodsz az utszegelyben.
> 
> Mi az abszolut kibaszas?
> Struccot betonuton megilyeszteni.
> 
> Mi az abszolut semmi?
> Nyeletlen bicska,penge nelkul.
> 
> Ki az abszolut udvarias?
> Aki a faradtolajat hellyel kinalja.
> 
> Ki az abszolut feledekeny?
> Aki magaba zarkozik,es elveszti a kulcsot.
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado : VICCEK
> E-mail :  [United States]
> Temakor: hulye skot ( 9 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 07:29:02 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> honnan tudod hogy a skot volt a szomszednal ? hat a kutya alapotos es a
> szemet kuka meg ures.
> honnan tudod hogy skot utcaba jarsz ? hat a hasznalt wc papir kint log
> szaradni.
> mi az, minne tobbet elveszell annal nagyob lesz ?
> luk.
> 
> szijaztok
> antal istvan
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Austria]
> Temakor: ujabb viccek ( 27 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 08:22:38 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> 	Udv mindenkinek!
> 
> 	A billiardasztalos poen borzasztoan kiraly volt!
> 	Meg sok ilyen hasonlot, please.
> 
> 	Patkanycsalad uszik a csatornaban. Elol a patkanymama, hatul
> 	a gyerekek. Elrepul felettuk egy denever, mire az egyik kis
> 	patkany felkialt: - Nezd mama tunder!
> 
> 	Pistike odasomfordal a kalauzhoz:
> 	- Vasutasbacsi, adjal nekem egy szal cigit.
> 	- Nem adhatok Pistike, meg nagyon fiatal vagy te ehhez.
> 	- Na de vasutasbacsi csak egy szalat.
> 	- Megmondtam Pistike nem.
> 	- Naaa csak egy szalat kerek.
> 	- Nem adok. Biztosan csak azert kell hogy nagyfiu legyel.
> 	- Vasutasbaaacsiii, csak egy szaalaat!
> 	- Nem kapsz!
> 	- Naaa, csak egyet.
> 	Kalauz megunja a hosszas nyaggatast es megkinalja Pistiket
> 	egy cigarettaval, sot meg tuzet is ad neki. Pistike melyen
> 	beszivja a fustot, hanyagul kifujja :
> 	- Na mivan ba%$'meg te vagy itt a bakter?
> 
> 	Tovabbi kellemes mokazast kivanva bucsuzom:
> 
> 						Botond
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado : Riesz Ferenc
> E-mail :  [Finland]
> Temakor: Re: MOKKA # valahany ( 28 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 08:26:49 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Udv Mindenkinek.
> 
> A MOKKA nyolszazhetvenharmas szamaban Hlavathy Zoltan vrajtsz:
> > Felado  :  Hlavathy  Zoltan
> > E-mail  :    [Hungary]
> > Temakor:  Csernobil  (  2  sor  )
> > Idopont:  Tue  Nov    7  05:11:40  EST  1995  MOKA  #873
> 
> > Hogyan  vonultak  fel  1986.  majus  1-en  a  kijevi  dolgozok?
> 
> Elol a partaktiva'k, mogottuk a szaxervezeti aktiva'k, vegul a
> radioaktiva'k.
> 
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> 
> Megy a szeker valahol Szekelyfoldon. Az ut szelen all egy gobe:
> - Messze van meg Csikszereda ?
> - Nem.
> - Folszallhatok ?
> - Fol.
> - ...
> - ...
> - ...
> - ... (eltelt egy felora)
> - Hat messze van-e meg Csikszereda ?
> - Hat most mar igencsak...
> 
> Feri 8-)>
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado : Meszaros Laszlo (Budapestrol)
> E-mail :  [Sweden]
> Temakor: A rejtely nyitja ( 2 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 09:41:33 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Lanyok, tudjatok, miert kedvelik a ferfiak az oralis szexet?
> Vegre par perc csend...
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Tunisia]
> Temakor: Re: *** MOKA *** #873 ( 7 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 10:00:23 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> egy elefan es egy eger tenger parton vannak . nagyon baratok de nem
> birnak egyszerre bemenni a vibe es elveztni egyutt az uszas !!!
> miert????
> 
> Csak Egy uszo nadragjuk van !!!
> 
> Nejib
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Germany]
> Temakor: windows 95 ( 13 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 10:09:52 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Tetszett a win4.00, rogton fel is neztem a falra, ahol nalunk egy kis
> szatirikus kep van, ezzel a szoveggel:
> 
> - Mr. Gates, mit szol a Windows 95-hoz?
> - Alt + F4
> 
>     andi     andi
>   andiandi andiandi
>  andiandiandiandiandi
>    andiandiandiandi
>      andiandiandi
>        andiandi
>          andi
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado : Furi Nandor [Svedorszag]                         HBSENF   DS
> E-mail :  [United States]
> Temakor: RE: qltura                                       HBSENF ( 22 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 10:49:54 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> >From SKF Mail Gateway   Msgname:     Ref:                 Date:
>                         H95PMDM9                          95-11-08 16:51
> 
> From:                   Company, Country                  Addr:    At:
> Subject: RE: qltura                                       HBSENF   DSVGOT
> Tel:                    Fax:
> +46(31)371063           +46(31)371222
> 
> To:
> 
> Subject:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A tegnapi MOKA-ban Meszaros Laci eletkepe idezte fel bennem ezt a rovid
> kis into figyelmeztetest.
> 
> Mondtam, bazdmeg, ne bazdmeg. Megbasztad, elbasztad, bazdmeg.
> 
> Bocs'
> Nandi
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado : Furi Nandor [Svedorszag]                         HBSENF   DS
> E-mail :  [United States]
> Temakor: Rendorvicc                                       HBSENF ( 21 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 10:57:13 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> >From SKF Mail Gateway   Msgname:     Ref:                 Date:
>                         H95PMDRV                          95-11-08 16:58
> 
> From:                   Company, Country                  Addr:    At:
> Subject: Rendorvicc                                       HBSENF   DSVGOT
> Tel:                    Fax:
> +46(31)371063           +46(31)371222
> 
> To:
> 
> Subject:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A rendor uj lakasba koltozik. Masnap a kollegai hiaba varjak az orson,
> nem megy dolgozni.
> Kiszalajtanak hozza egy jarort, 'hogy meglesse mit csinal'.
> Otthon a rendor all a letra tetejen, es duhodten tepkedi le a tapetat.
> -Mit csinalsz?!
> -Tegnap kaptuk ezt a lakast, de meg mindig nem sikerult kicsomagolnom!
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Germany]
> Temakor: rejtveny ( 10 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 12:10:59 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Hogy lehet az, hogy talakozik ket himnemu tojas, es a talakozas
> pillanataban nonemuek lesznek?
> 
>     andi     andi
>   andiandi andiandi
>  andiandiandiandiandi
>    andiandiandiandi
>      andiandiandi
>        andiandi
>          andi
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Germany]
> Temakor: pekingi kacsa ( 20 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 13:12:05 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Kinai etteremben egy vendeg pekingi kacsat rendel, kihozzak egy
> felora mulva a kacsat, a vendeg beledugja az ujjat a kacsa hatso
> felebe, es azt mondja:
> - Ez nem pekingi, ez sanghai-i.
> A pincer visszaviszi a kacsat, felora mulva hoznak egy ujat, a vendeg
> ismet beledugja az ujjat a kacsa hatso felibe, es mondja:
> - Ez nem pekingi, ez hongkongi.
> Mire a masik sarokban felall egy reszeg, letolja a nadragjat, es azt
> lihegi:
> - Nem tudna megmondani hova valosi vagyok, annyira beszivtam......
> 
> amugy a pingvines viccet ismeri vki?
> 
>     andi     andi
>   andiandi andiandi
>  andiandiandiandiandi
>    andiandiandiandi
>      andiandiandi
>        andiandi
>          andi
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: MOKA    To whom (Eszter) it may concern ( 42 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 14:38:17 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> *.: 18 even aluliaknak :
>     Rigo sztri't ferditesek :
>     Mary got a lucky telex (Maria kapott egy szerencses telexet)
>       --> Maris Lakitelekte erkezett.
> 
> *.: 18 even felulieknek :
>     Valaki aki anonymus akar maradni kuldte nekem
> "igy mar nem merem bekuldeni... Csak szolok, ha netan elkerul-
> te volna a figyelmedet:"
> >> =======================================================
> >> Felado :  [United States]
> >> Temakor: Emlekeim kott tallozva... ( 35 sor )
> >> Idopont: Tue Nov  7 20:51:25 EST 1995 MOKA #873
> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >>
> >  [...]
> >>
> >> Harom sperma utazik..
> >> -Bi-bi-bee, en tudom, hogy kislany leszek!
> >> -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy kisfiu leszek!
> >> -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy a nyelocsoben utazunk!
> >>
> >  [...]
> >>
> >> =======================================================
> >
> >Ha igy allunk, akkor folosleges volt ugy aggodni a Telapo miatt...
> >
>   Mit tudok ehhez szolni?
>   -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy    szarban      vagyunk!
>   -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy a  dekoltazsban vagyunk!
>   -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy a  lepedon      vagyunk!
>   -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy a  szonyegen    vagyunk!
>   -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy a  plafonon     vagyunk!
>   -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy az autoulesen   vagyunk!
>   -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy az apa markaban vagyunk!
>   -Bi-bi-bee, en meg tudom, hogy a  honaljban vagyunk!  <---Ez a legjobb
>    (Es igy sem felunk a Telapotol!!!)
>   Egyebkent Eszter! Tegnap nagyon termekeny voltal gondolom
>   mindenki jot mulatott a torteneteiden.
> 
>                           Dr.Dr.K.S., 1995.XI.8  USA
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: ludens... ( 20 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 16:03:50 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Hali Mokazok !
> 
>  En nem ertem, hogy van ez.Ennyire unalmas lenne minden eloadas, amit abban a
> teremben tartanak, amiben a ludens gep van?
> Majd' minden mokaban van egy-ket emberke, akinek a cime ludens.elte.hu - ra
> vegzodik. Ez nem egy szemrehanyas, csak erdekelne, hogy mikepp lehet megoldan
i
> az egyetemen ilyesmit.
> Semmi bajom a ludenssel, nekem is van ismerosom arrafele, de azert nezzetek
> meg a mokakat, kb az utolso 5-6 szamot.Elkepeszto !
> 
> Azert egy vicc is jon, ha meg nem volt :
> 
> Egy nevjorki sikatorban 9 fiatal fekete srac megtamad egy maganyos feher not.
> Mit teszel, hogy megvedelmezd?
> - A feketek koze dobsz egy kosarlabdat...
> 
> ha mar volt, akkor bocs.
> 
> opium
> opium
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado : Nagy Tibor
> E-mail :  [United States]
> Temakor: Koszonet... ( 7 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 16:22:31 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Kedves Andras,
> 
> Orok halam a Favagodalert.
> Ha esetleg van meg valami a tarsolyodban,
> kuldd csak, ne kimelj minket.
> 
> Pupak
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: A tokomet a cenzuraba! ( 9 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 21:58:06 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> > Nem, egyaltalan nem jo. A fajirto vicceket a tovabbiakban ha lehet
> mellozzuk!
> 
> Nyugodtan kuldjetek csak be akarmilyen viccet. Ne a tartalmat nezd az
> ilyen tipusu vicceknel, hanem a csattanot. A cenzurazast meg felejtsuk
> el most es mindorokre. Ma ot, holnap engem, holnaputan Teged. Ezt
> akarod?
> 
> Sid Vicsovszky, lengyel szabadsagharcos aki a Szovjetunioba emigralt
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Sid Vicsovszky Egypercesek ( 6 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 22:31:12 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Q: Mit mondott Christa McAuliffe (a felrobbant Challanger urrepulo egyik
>    asztronautaja) a ferjenek elindulas elott?
> 
> A: Te etesd meg a kutyat, en meg megetetem a halakat.
> 
> Sid Vicsovszky, lengyel szabadsagharcos aki a Szovjetunioba emigralt
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado : Hlavathy Zoltan
> E-mail :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Kontra Kojaknek ( 9 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 07:06:35 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Jol figyelj, mert nem mondom megegyszer:
> 
> Az ember odafordul egy kedves lanyhoz, es megkerdi:
>  - Felszemu, huhog es baszni akar, mi az?
> A kerdo tekintetre az ember fellabra all, eltakarja az egyik szemet, es
> azt mondja:
>  - Huhu.
> 
> Hlavy
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: vicc ( 3 ) ( 3 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 07:13:15 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> - Ettel mar Bokros-kolbaszt?
> - Nem...
> - Nem is ehettel, mert meg el a diszno!
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado : Juhos Szilveszter
> E-mail :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Re: Vagy ( 22 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 07:27:39 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
>   (Meszaros Laszlo (Budapestrol)) wrote:
> 
> >Miutan az osszes informaciot betaplaltak a szuperszamitogepbe.
> >a tabornok betaplalta a kerdest:
> > - Az USA vagy a Szovjetunio (modernizalva: Oroszorszag) fog
> >eloszor embert kuldeni a Marsra?
> 
> No igen az illeto konyvben sokkal jobban tetszett a kovetkezo mondat
> angolrol oroszra forditasa:
> 
> "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Mate 26.41)
> magyar forditas:
> "A lelek kesz, de a test erotlen"
> A szamitogeppel angolrol-oroszra tortent forditas magyar forditasa:
> "A vodka jo, de a hus vacak"
> 
> Egyebkent meg: Mero: Eszjarasok c. fenomenalis konyveben vannak ezek
> (nem viccgyujtemeny, hanem a mesterseges intelligenciarol szol)
> 
> Szilva
> 
> PS: de szerintem egyszer mar megirtam, ugy remlik...
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Orvos viccc ( 12 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 09:22:13 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Hello!
> 
> Egy ficko elmegy az orvoshoz:
>  - Doktor ur, sulyos szexualis es vizelesi problemaim vannak!
>  - Vetkozzon le!
>  (levetkozik)
>  - De uram! Onnek egy csomo van a farkara kotve!
>  (a ficko erre a homlokara csap)
>  - Jesszusom, a kenyer!
> 
> NCSA!
> Mark.
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Definicio ( 12 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 10:09:43 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Nepek!
> 
> Egy penzugyi - szamviteli konyvbol olloztak ki ezt a def.-t, amit most
> kozzeteszek.
> 
> Def.: A minoseg es a modell ertelmezese: Hegel szerint: "A letezes megha-
> tarozott let; meghatarozottsaga lettel biro meghatarozottsag, minoseg.
> Minosege altal van valami egy massal szemben valtozo es veges, nemcsak
> egy massal szemben, hanem magaban teljesen negativan meghatarozott."
> 
> Semmit nem tettem hozza, es el sem vettem belole.
> T
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Lord Epping's ( 22 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 10:18:20 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Panaszkodunk, hogy nagy a dragasag... De ez mindig igy volt. Lowy Arpad
> (alias Rethy Laszlo akademikus, a Magyar Nemzeti Muzeum regisegtaranak
> vezetoje) valamikor igy irt a "boldog bekeidokben", a szazadfordulo tajan:
> 
>                                  DRAGASAG
> 	Mindenutt panasz hallik, hogy szornyu draga minden
> 	Es javulasra, sajnos, meg kilatasunk sincsen.
> 
> 	A liszt, a kave, zsemle, hus, cukor, fuszer: Draga!
> 	Senki sem emlekszik meg ekkora dragasagra.
> 
> 	Ha igy tart meg - elebunk szep perspektiva tarul:
> 	Maholnap meg kell vonni a pinat is a szanktul!
> 
> Lesz-e valami olcsobb? Igen! Erre talaltam egy limericket (raadasul a
> magam-adomanyozta fonemesi elonevet is tartalmazza).
> 
> 	A sempstress at Epping-on-Tyne
> 	Used to peddle her tail down the line.
> 		She firs
##


ö+
öü
ö
öä got a crown,
> 		But her prices went down -
> 	Now she'll fit you for ten pence or nine.	
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: *** BEMUTATKOZAS *** ( 34 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 14:06:01 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Szevasztok!
> 
> E rovid tortenet az en bemutatkozo iromanyom a moka-ba.
> (Remelem nem fogjatok miattam lemondani az ujsagot!)
> A dolog egyebkent allitolag megtortent, egy haverom meselte.
> Tehat a lenyeg:
> 
> Egy pesti buszon -  melyen alig voltak - utazott egy idosodo
> ember(kesobb: manusz), volt nala egy nagy zsak, tele almaval. Egy nagyobb
> kanyarban a zsak felborult, az almak kizudultak. Nagy lelkesedessel
> elkezdte szedegetni a manusz az almakat, mikor az utolsokat szedte
> szellentett(naturalistak kedveert:fingott) egyet. Senki nem reagalt...
> Azonban amikor leszallashoz keszulodott a mi manuszunk, a busz vegebol
> eloreszolt egy fiatal srac: He fingos van ott meg egy!!!
> 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -
> 
> Nagy buzgalmamban eszembe jutott meg egy reg hallott vicc, remelem meg
> nem szerepelt:
> 
> -Mi lenne ha szemmel el tudnank mindent intezni?
> -???
> -Tele lenne az utca hullakkal es terhes nokkel.
> 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -
> 
> Na most mar menekulok, mert szinte latom a felem ropulo paradicsomokat!
> 
> 
> CSA!!
> 
> *****************************************************************************
*
> 
> =======================================================
> Felado : Weisz Balint the W-Iceberg )
> E-mail :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: ESZTER-nek! ( 43 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Nov  8 14:18:36 EST 1995 MOKA #874
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Szia!
> Kerted, hogy kuldjunk videos elmenyeket, hat tessek:
> Az El Cid c. filmet neztuk videon, persze alamondassal. A szokasos unott
> hangu 'szinkron', ha a ho"s uvolt, a ficko azt mondja: A'! (ezt minek
> forditani?)
> Na mindegy, eleg az hozza, egyszer volt egy rovid resz, ahol eppen nem
> beszelnek, erre halljuk a ficko hangjat, kisse tavolrol:
>  "Rozsi, hozz mar be egy uveg sort!"
> No comment...
> Nem is tudom, hogy kepes lennek e meg megnezni egy alamondasos filmet.
> Igaz, mar nem is nagyon talalni...
> No, egy kis reklam (ha az USA-ban vagy, ezt nem fogod erteni sajnos):
> 
> -Hol az inged?
> -O~o~o~, sutottunk meggyespitet!
> -Nem azt kerdeztem, seggfej!
> 
> -Ez a dezodor meg teged is megvedene az izzadsagtol! Pedig te ugy izzadsz
> mint egy lo...
> 
> Imadom a reklamot, ahol Aigner 'Szikla' Szilard aszongya:
> "Csak a friss kave a jo kave!"
> Ki tudja gyorsan haromszor elmondani: "Csak a halott Aigner Szilard a jo
> Aigner Szilard"
> 
> Talaloskerdes:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> (lanyok, meg ne sertodjetek!)
> Q: Miert elnek hosszabb ideig a nok, mint a ferfiak?
> A: Hogy legyen idejuk elelvezni.
> 
> Masik:
> (ezen nyugodtan megsertodhettek, de nincs ertelme)
> 
> Q: Mibol lesz a cserebogar?
> A: Az olyan bogarakbol, akik nem eleg jok ahhoz, hogy bekeruljenek a
> kezdo csapatba.
> 
> Na pa', smoke some # (gy.k. hash)
> 
> -w-iceberg-
> 
> Ba'jdo~ve'j: nincs valakinek egy Alibi kazettaja?
> 
> 
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>

 wrote:

: What *.test groups is this junk mail talking about?

There are two possibilities:
 a) someone reset `Followup-To:' a *.test group and you inadvertely 
    posted in *.test.
 b) someone forged a post with a `From:' being your Email address 
    and posted it in *.test.

Conclusion: you have a secret `admirer'....   ;-)

In article >,
Laszlo Horvath > wrote:
>
>	It seems that I'll be moving to Vancouver in December so I'm 
>trying to get in touch with the locals. 	Thanks  LH

Don't worry, there are so many Hungarians in Vancouver that you can't
miss them.  Just visit there one of the Hungarian restaurants or the
Hungarian Cultural Center (Magyar Haz) when you get there.

There used to be a guy, Viktor Alag, who frequented the Hungarian HIX
list, and he may still be lurking here somewhere.  His e-mail address
was a winner. It started with valag@... .

Joe

In article >,  (Constantin Donea) 
writes:
|> In article >, CHARLES VAMOSSY 
elphi.com> writes:
[...]
|> >If Romania is truly a democratic nation serious about joining the ranks 
|> >of Western democracies, the answer surely must be yes.  
|> 
|> Again, you must be kidding.

Right, you must be kidding, who has ever heared about Romania being a democrati
c
nation at all ;-)

 Would the Mexicans in the states taken as
|> "war booty" a century ago by Washington be allowed to vote for independence?

Did this happen because their flag resembles (it is identical in colors) the
Hungarian one? ;-)

|> Or aren't USA any more both the motherland and the fatherland of the
|> democracy in the world?

  ^ try "modern" democracy

Not necessarily a century ago...

|> 
|> Constantin Donea
|> 

Why don't you ever try to come up with real arguments, showing that you have at
least some knowledge of the Transylvanian realitie? This posting of yours remin
ded
me of a story back in the '80s (not necessarily because it is relevant to the
subject):

While directing the organization of an (product) exhibition in a town in 
Transylvania, a designer warned the people puting the together the stands to 
avoid using colors that resemble the flags of Bulgaria, Italy and Mexico ... :-
)

(Hint: all of them have the same three colors: red, white and green)

Matyas

P.S. I'm just in a good mood...
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In article >,  (Gary D. Fadling) w
rites:
>From what I could see, the Romanian government 
>takes much more than it gives out, and it remains to be seen if the Hungarian 
>government would be any better!


We've already seen it's not, and thank you, but we aren't eager to test
whatever changed in this "new" Hungarian government!

Constantin Donea

In article >,  () writes:
|> CHARLES VAMOSSY ) wrote:
[...]
|> > Canada, much to it's credit, supported Quebec's claim to language and 
|> > culture, and wrote it into their constitution.  This is so much so, that 
|> > today, if anything, it is the French in Quebec who restrict English.
|> 
|>     This is just an observation because I don't care one way or the next 
|> about the language that students in romania learn in.  However you might 
|> take the recent vote in quebec as a motive to stop lingual diversity in 
|> transylvania.
   ^
Try to suggest the same thing to the "quebecoises", using the same argument.

  This has happened in the united states where a congress 
|> man (from my state even)as a result of recent event in Canada has 
|> introduced a law that will effectly outlaw the teaching of lower level 
|> classes in languages other than english.  Spanish is the target of this 
|> law and the reasoning is if you allow a distinct culture to enter and not 
|> assimalate then you will eventually face division and the cultures 
|> clash. 

Difference is that Hungarians "entered" about 1000 years ago and there was no
reason for them to assimilate, since even if Romanians had been the majority 
some time before WWI, this majority wasn't even 2 to 1.

 I would like to avoid flames by pointing out that I do NOT agree 
|> with this law and feel that americans being mostly mono-lingual is a 
|> disadvantage.  

Then, you should have avoided it, because, at least I don't believe in the
sincerity of this statement.

|> 
|> > But I can't help but wonder if Romania, having taken over Transylvania as 
|> > war booty from the 
|> > loosing Hungarian side, would afford the same human rights to its 
|> > Hungarian minority as Canada does to the French.  Would Romania give the 
|> > same constitutional guarantees of language and culture as Canada?  
|> 
|>    I think there are lots-o-people on this group that would disagree with 
|> you on this point seeing as how Hungry got Transylvania in the first 
|> place, 

Namely, how (and when) did Hungary get Transylvania first?

|>but I will leave that point to others who know more about it. 

Then why bother even mentioning it?

[...]
|> 
|> 
|> Regards,
|> Scott

Matyas
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 (Wally Keeler) wrote:

>However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.
>-- 
>Wally Keeler					Poetry
>Creative Intelligence Agency			is
>Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

That, indeed would be a great and positive step forward.  Transylvania 
was, at one point, the most tolerant of multicultural regions, where 
religious tolerance ruled and people of varying tounges lived together 
in peace, independent of Hungary and Romania.  Indeed, it could be the 
next Switzerland.

Charles Vamossy

In article > T. Kocsis, 
writes:
>>I'm looking for information sources or information Ferenc Kazinczy. 
>>Specificaly information on his life or even family tree. 

He was born in1759 at Érsemlyén, Bihar county, in an aristocratic
kalvinist family. He studied law, in 1799 he worked in Kassa,
Eperjes and Pest. 1784 became a freemason. 1786 inspector of
the upper-Hungarian state elementary schools. 1791: he lost his job,
because as kalvinist was not allowed to care of catholic schools.
1794: became a member of the secret society of Reformators (es-
tablished by Martinovics) 1791: jailed till 1801 (2387 days) in
Spielberg, Kufstein and Munkács. After jail he got no state job,
he started farming. 1804 he married to gr. Török Sophie who was
20 years younger than he. 1806: he moves to Bányácska. 1820:
archivist of Zemplén county. 1831: died of cholera.

>>He modernized the Hungarian language.

>He did not do that. His work aimed to bring the Magyar language
>into usage when officially other languages was favoured (Latin
>& German). He started a movement which result was that the
>upper class, the aristocrats, the poets and writers started to
>use their mother language.

That's not entirely correct. He did not start the movement,
even as a young  writer he was against it. Later he became a
"middle-of-the-road" language reformer, he preferred the
"fenntebb stíl" , the higher style, the l'art pour l'art, the sty-
listics über alles. The language refom was rather a political
movement in the disguise of literature. He took part in the
game as the "dictator" of  the Hungarian literature of his time.

When he came out of jail,  literary life (?)  did not exist in Hun-
gary, the leaders were jailed, societies were smashed. The
writers and poets worked alone, they were not in contact
with each other. Kazinczy noticed the opportunity of his life
to become the center of Hungarian literature (he was not an
outstanding literary genius himself),  and started to organize
his literary dictatorship. He visited every single poets, writers,
critics, etc. one by one , built up a correspondence with them. 
Every new poet, or any work of art was sent to him,  to dec-
lare his opinion first. For the luck of Hungarian literature  he
was a very, very  good critic, and helped the new talents.
However he was inconsiderate and merciless who questioned
his authority or whose works was against his literary taste
(which unfortunatelly was very specific, one-sided). 

Tamás

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>von Neumann zsidó volt ?
>
>Én úgy tudtam, hogy nem magyarnak (vagy zsidónak), hanem
>kategórikusan németnek tartotta magát....

Hmmm ...  En annak tudtam, de mar nem tudom honnan.  Mintha maguk a
zsidok emlegettek volna ugy, de lehet hogy tevedek.

A "von" elonev hasznalata az USA-ban meg nem szuksegszeruen jelent echte
nemet nemest, mivel az ilyen eloneveket (a francia "de"-vel egyutt)
eloszeretettel akasztott sok emigrans a nevehez.

Mindenesetre most valoban kivancsiva tettel.  Van aki tud errol
biztosabbat?

Kosz,
Jozsi

Since yesterday, I started getting in my mail box a letter, like the
following, for each article I posted here.  Anybody else has seen one
of these?

------------
From  Wed Nov  8 06:42:22 1995
Received: from raffles.technet.sg by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA18192
  (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for >); Wed, 8 Nov 1995 06:42:19 -
0800
Received: (from ) by raffles.technet.sg (8.7.1/8.7.1) id UAA03910
; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 20:28:21 +0800 (SGT)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 20:28:21 +0800 (SGT)
Message-Id: >
X-Authentication-Warning: raffles.technet.sg: news set sender to 
chnet.sg using -f
To:  ()
Subject: Re: Re: "Ha szegyelled, akkor nem is vagy az!"
From: Pacific Internet Autoresponder >
Precedence: junk
Status: OR

           DO NOT PANIC! THIS IS AN AUTORESPONSE MESSAGE. 
          YOU CAN SAFELY IGNORE THIS MESSAGE AND DELETE IT.

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Your Usenet test article was received here at the news gateway machine 
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All headers plus at most 10 lines of user text from your original article are
reproduced below for your perusal:

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enet.kornet.nm.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.internetmci.com!
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feed.cit.cornell.edu!cornellcs!uw-beaver!uw-coco!nwnews.wa.com!news1.halcyon.co
m!coho!danubius
From:  ()
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
Subject: Re: "Ha szegyelled, akkor nem is vagy az!"
Date: 8 Nov 1995 04:47:02 GMT
Organization: Northwest Nexus, Inc. - Professional Internet Services
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References: > > <47c4k
> >
NNTP-Posting-Host: coho.halcyon.com

Laszlo Katkits > wrote:
>
I'm getting tired of your whining, but there must be something said
here.

>Obviously you don't. You never heard about those 600 000 deported
>from Hungary, less then 100 000 returned. They were gethered and
>sent to death by the Hungarian autorities, even if you claim that
>most of them got killed by Germans. And Ujvidek ? Unknown for you,
>or you try to say that they were also the Germans?
------------------------------

What *.test groups is this junk mail talking about?

Thanks,
Joe Pannon

 wrote:

: But it makes really no difference whether the carve-up was before or
: after the war when it was left in place after the war by the victors.
: Because one of the actors of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was eventually
: one of the victors, the results of that pact was de facto approved by
: the post-WW II peace treaties.  (Boy! -- was this redundant, or what?)

	Unlike WWI, WWII did not end with peace treaties.  It ended with the 
Western Powers in control of some countries, and the Soviet Union 
occupying others.  The Western Powers could not undo Stalin's land-grabs 
without going to war with him, and therefore did not do so.  But, that 
did not mean that they accepted his actions.  For example, the American 
government never recognized the Soviet annexation of the Baltic 
Republics - to the extent that we recognized their governments-in-exile, 
and never allowed the Soviet to take the gold that their governments had 
sent here for safe keeping.  Given that Bessarabia was annexed by 
Stalin at the same time, I don't see why you feel so convinced that it's 
annexation was recognized by the West.

: The moral is: you don't second-guess the victors.
: They still write the history and draw the maps. 

	You're ready to fogive us for Trianon???  There is hope after all.

	Alexander

In article >,
Nguyen Tri Duc  > wrote:
>
>Can a Soviet have buddha-nature?
>
     A worker approached the district commissar and asked this question:

     "Comrade, our collective requires five tons of grain to survive the
winter.  Yet we have been allotted only one ton.  How, then, is the
collective to survive to serve the State?"

     The district commissar whipped the worker, appropriated his dwelling
and referred the worker to the local Party officer.  The worker asked the
Party officer the same question.

     The Party officer had his men beat all of the worker's teeth out of
his mouth, shot his grandmother, added his name to a list of enemies of
the State, and referred him to the Agricultural Secretary.  The worker
asked the Agricultural Secretary the same question.

     The Agricultural Secretary prevailed upon his assistants to shatter
the worker's fingers, to slit his tongue, to rape and disembowel his
daughter, to send the remainder of his family to become experimental
subjects for bacteriological warfare research, and referred him to the
First Party Secretary.  The worker mumbled the same question to the First
Party Secretary.

     The First Party Secretary reallocated the ton of grain to his office's
reserves, and relegated the worker to a small, windowless room in the base-
ment of the Ministry of State Security, where the worker spent the winter
having electrical leads attached to various parts of his body, and where he
was subject to various amputations without benefit of anesthetic.  At the end
of this time, the survivors in the worker's collective were sent to dig a
canal from frozen ground using their fingernails, and the worker was ushered
into the august presence of the First Party Secretary, where he was forced to
his knees, blindfolded, with the barrel of a machine pistol pressed against
the back of his head.  A string leading from the trigger of the pistol was
tied around the worker's neck.

     The First Party Secretary spoke.  "I will now allow you to answer your
own question, Comrade.  Do you understand?"

     The worker nodded his head, and was thus Enlightened.

Martin "when you meet the Soviet on the road, run away" Booda
-- 
Usenet is essentially a HUGE group of people passing notes in class. --R. Kadel

Press Release

the Tlnet reportHungarian software company wins an "Eddy" for ArchiCAD 4.5

   Budapest, Hungary-Graphisoft, a Hungarian software firm located here,
has become the first non-U.S. company to win MacUser magazine's Editor's
Choice Award, known as the Eddys. The firm won its Eddy for its
costruction designer program ArchiCAD 4.5.
   The company was started in 1982 by two young men, Gabor Bajor and
Istvan Gabor Tari. It quickly gained notoriety by winning a 1983
competition for designing the pipeline network of a Hungarian nuclear
energy plant.
   The company quickly grew and now has about 100 employees. It exports
special construction CAD programs in 16 languages to various countries,
including the United States, Japan and Germany.
                     Zsuzsa (Susan) Szentgyorgyi
IEE Member, Tlnet/Budapest, Hungary

Istvan (Steve) Mihaly
Hungarian American Heritage Network

Hallo, emberek, most egy kicsit lányos zavarban vagyok, 
hogy jól csinálom-e. Mindenesetre ez az elsö alkalom, 
hogy valamit postázok. Miután leteszteltem technikai kompetenciámat
egy "Einstandswitz":

József és Mária tanakodnak otthon, hogy a fiuk már 30 elmúlt és még 
soha nem volt növel. Mitévök legyenek? Józsefnek eszébe jut, hogy ott van
Mária Magdaléna, ö a horizontális ipart üzi, majd elviszi a fiát öhozzá.
Fogja elmegy Jézussal hozzá, beküldi a fiát a házba, de mivel kíváncsi
természetü, megvárja kint az eseményeket. Eltelik 10 perc, ekkor látja József,
hogy Mária Magdaléna hiszterikusan sírva rohan ki a házból. Megpróbálja
megkérdezni töle, mi a baja, de a hölggyel nem lehet beszélni, hiszterikus
sírógörccsel elrohan. József bemegy a házba, Jézus ül az ágy szélén. József meg
-
kérdezi:
- Mi történt, fiam???
Jézus révülten válaszol:
- Megmutatta a sebét... ....és meggyógyítottam...

Elnézést minden Wojtyla-fan-töl....

A possible conclusion of this evening's talk of Bishop Tokes Laszlo at the
International Center of the University of Alberta, Edmonton, as stated by 
Bishop Tokes himself: "We want to be integrated in the Romanian society, but we
don't want to be assimilated".

Eddie

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>Nekem is jött.

Fortunately they stopped it before I wrote them a nasty.
I've got nothing like that in today's mail.
Knock on wood!

Joe

Janos Szamosfalvi > wrote:
>
>Conclusion: you have a secret `admirer'....   ;-)  

But of course!  How this did not occur to me before is beyond me! ;-)

Joe

Laszlo Katkits > wrote:
>
>>Do you have any proof the Hungarian authorities knew they were sending
>>them to their death? 
>
>Yes. Foe example the Swedish legacy published facts about it, in already
>1943. US newspaper did report about Dachau and Treblinka, during the war,
>I don't have the exact dates.

Those "facts" may have appeared at the time as just another piece of
propoganda.  I'm pretty sure there were other writings at the time
denying such things were taking place.  Just because later those
allegations got proven, doesn't mean that they were generally accepted
during the war time.  In fact, most of the Jews did not believe such
rumors and that's why they were lining up for the departations without
much, if any, resistance.  After all, they were being reassured about it
by the Jewish Councils doing much of the administrative work for the
Germans.  As I mentioned before, had the horrors of the death camps been
generally known, the world would not have been so surprised when their
gates were opened by the advancing Allies. 
>
>>Oh, and Ujvidek (Novi Sad) ...  That was indeed the single significant
>
>I could have mentioned Kassa too or Kolozsvar. And then you could
>mention the slovaks and romans revenge. It does not change the facts.

Yes, why don't you mention Kassa and Kolozsvar?  I'm sure out eager
neighbors would also like to hear about them.

>>killing at least 20 Hungarian civilian for each Serb killed before. 
>
>Let's see: this will be 35 000 X 20 = 700 000 hungarians....Ooops !
>It could be cheap to point on your sense for proportions....

You sure have a way of putting words into my mouth! Who was talking
about 35 000 victims in the Novi Sad massacre?  You conveniently applied
a factor of about 10 to it, for the number was about 3 500, according to
Dezso Sulyok's memoires.  And he certainly was no right winger.
Oh, and in your answer to Tamas you also misstated what I wrote about
the court marshal that followd those massacres.  I did not write that
only one officer was charged for it.   As a matter of fact, besides the
chief culprits, Gens. Feketehalmi-Czeydner and Grassy, some 25 other
officers were court marshalled, but the Germans and their 5th columnist
Hungarian traitors helped the five main characters to escape before the
sentences were announced.  Except one of the charged officers (Marton
Zoldi, "csendorszazados"), all were of German ethnic background.

>Just as I already mentioned: You gave me advices where I sholud go, while 
>I didn't. 

That's right.  It's only logical that if you have such a low opinion of
Sweden, you'd leave it just as you left Hungary.  I never understood Jews
who constantly complain about all the anti-semitism around, yet would
not move to Israel.  Strikes me like a case of masochism.
So yes, I had a good reason to give you an advice and you didn't.
>
> You said how much you dislike people like, while I did not say
>anything about dislikeing you or Hungarians as a whole.

I think I wasn't the only one who resented your comments, and don't take
us fool with that second half of your tortured sentence.

>Who gave you the right to give yourself the right to determine, who
>is hungarian and who isn't ? Again : don't you go too far ?

One does not grow up without learning a few things along the way.
So this gave me the right to determine for myself that you are no friend
of Hungarians.  In fact you hate them.  Believe me, I've seen enough of
your type to recognize one when I see (or read) one.  I don't care if
you don't believe me.

>And again, it's not up to you, it's my decision not to strike back
>on the personal plane.

The first wise thing you wrote so far.

>Es most magyarul:
>
>Ni csak!  Tudsz te meg magyarul is?  Kar hogy nem igy kezdted, mivel az
>angolod eleg pocsek.
>
>Lehetseges valaszok:
>1. Latatlanban merem garantalni, hogy a Te sveded sokkal pocsekabb.

Nem baj, ez nem egy sved hircsoport egyebkent sem.

>2. Neked ma magyarod sem jobb, ime egy pelda:

No fene!  Hol dicsekedtem en a magyarsagommal?  Pusztan arra celoztam,
hogyha olyan pocsekol irsz angolul (persze egy Svedorszagban elohoz
kepest nem pocsek!), akkor miert nem irsz magyarul?  Abbol, hogy megis
az angolt valasztottad, csak megerositetted azt a gyanut, hogy maximalis
nyilvanossagot akartal biztositani a magyarsag gyalazasanak.  Mikor
aztan sarokba szorultal, hirtelen elkezdtel magyarul irni, s megjatszani
az artatlan baranyt.
>
>Te itt a tulelesrol es nem a megelhetesrol (anyagi jolet) akartal
>beszelni. Vagy tevedek, es a magyarok a _megelhetesuket_ feltettek ?

Hat bizony a haboru alatt sokaknak voltak megelhetesi gondjai.  Nem volt
az olyan konnyu csaladot eltartani, mig a ferfiak a fronton voltak, s
nagy reszt ott is vesztek.  Ha ez nem is volt olyan nehez, mint a zsidok
sorsa, nem is volt konnyu.

>Ezek azonben hibas valaszlok, kerem torolni a jegyzokonyvbol.
      ^^^^^^         ^^^^^^^^
Hat latod, meg te is csinalsz hibakat.  Ejnye!
>
>Kisse furcsallom az elozoekben elhangzottakat. Mindenki bunos, a nemetek,
>a zsidok, a romanok, a ciganyok stb., csak egyedul a magyarok voltak
>buntelenek az egesz haboru alatt.

Mond csak, tudsz te egyaltalan IGAZAT is irni?  Ugyanis itt nem arrol
volt szo, hogy a magyarok buntetlenek voltak, hanem arrol, hogy te
egyszeruen lenaciztad az egesz magyarsagot.  Ez kb. olyan, mintha en azt
irtam volna, hogy a zsidok mind bolsik az olyanok miatt, mint a 1919-es
Voros Kommun, vagy a Rakosi rendszer vezetoinek osszetetele volt.
Mar elore tudom micsoda rikacsolas torne ki, ha valaki ilyet allitana.

> Mindezt ugy, hogy en nem allitottam,
>hogy CSAK a magyarok voltak bunosok, hogy MINDEN magyar bunos lett
>volna, hogy MA IS ezt az utat jarnak.

Ugy latom ez a forum nem egeszen ugy olvasta azt ki a cikkeidbol.

>Na most nezzuk a csemeget:
>Tegyuk fel, hogy egy kulfoldre szakadt roman elpanaszolja, hogy
>szegyelli honfitarsainak hozzaallasat, pl. Vatra Romanesca vagy
>hogy hivjak. Erre  azt valszoljak neki, hogy legyel inkabb buszke a
>nagy roman nepre, akik egy Bolyait, Hunyadit stb. adtak a vilagnak.
>Erre mondjuk egy magyar hatan felall a szor, hogy ez azert nem igazan
>van rendjen. Mire Joe Dakescu kifejti hogy O ismeri az ilyeneket,
>meg hogy a magyarok nem is voltak soha uldozve Romaniaban, es nagyon
>unja, hogy a romanokat mindig ilyenekkel bantjak.
>Csemege vege....

Hat ha ez neked csemege, akkor lelked rajta.  Szerintem egyszeruen csak
baromsagot irtal.  Mar eleve a hasonlatod is nagyon eroltetett, s ugy
van igazitva, hogy az jojjon ki belole, amit beterveztel.

Eloszor is te nem azt irtad, hogy szegyelled a honfitarsaid
hozzaallasat, hanem azt, hogy szegyelled, hogy magyar vagy.  Tehat mar a
felallasnal csusztatsz.

Masodszor MO-on nincs is a Vatrahoz hasonlo szervezet, ami ahhoz hasonlo
tamogatottsaggal, s igy hatalommal birna.  Hol van ma MO-on egy hasonlo
part a Parlamentben?  Ki mondta azt itt, hogy a zsidok nem voltak
uldozve?  En a nobel dijasokrol irtam ezt kozuluk, nem az egesz
zsidosagrol.  No de eleg is ennyi a te "csemegedbol".  Ebbol is latszik,
hogy a "Joe Dakescu" egesz jol felmert teged.
..
>Tovabbra is sajat nevvel:
>//Laszlo

Viszont!
Pannon Jozsef
(Ha te maskent tudod,
akkor felhatalmazlak
bizonyitekaid nyilvanossagra 
hozatalara.)

 wrote:
: In article >,
: Alexander Bossy > wrote:

: Forget about our arguments and just concentrate on yours with Liviu.

	Let Liviu decide for himself whether he wants to reopen our 
argument, just as he lets you decide for yourself.

: Tell me that his arguments had no academic support.

	He more-or-less dismissed the archeological evidence out of hand.  He 
didn't argue it.

	Liviu's linguistic analysis of Romanian and Alabanian was
certainly far beyond anything that I could provide on my own.  But, they 
are meaningless UNLESS you accept his claim that Dacian and Illyrian 
COULD NOT HAVE BEEN distantly related.  That is something that no one can 
prove since we just don't have records of Illyrian and Dacian to know.  
That means that his analysis of the languages, while very detailed, and 
interesting no doubt, can't be used to prove (or disprove) your 
Out-of-Illyria pet theory.

: >still questioned Romanian continuity in the early 1970's, by 1976 EVERY 
: >SINGLE BOOK accepted it - even the ones written by Hungarians.

: Really?  How about some names and titles from those Hungarians?

	I can't give them to you any longer.  I don't keep records of 
everything that I do for eight or nine months in case you suddenly get 
curious.  (And you didn't ask for names and titles last winter).  If you 
seriously reopen this debate, I'll try and spend some time retracing my 
steps, and give you a nice long list.  But, I'm a lot bussier than last 
winter, and won't be quick.
	I was looking for ANY accademic support of Out-of-Illyria, so 
that I could address any credible counter-arguments to Romanian 
continuity.  I looked at all kinds of books: histories of Hungary 
translated from Hungarian, histories of Transylvania, etc. etc.  While 
many of the older books (especially from the 1940's) verociously 
dismissed continuity, they didn't address the archeological evidence 
(mostly because there was so much less back then).  The post-1976 books 
that I looked at UNIVERSALY accepted Romanian continutiy.  If you have 
any single example of a book (or article) written in the 1980's or 
1990's, (in English or French, since those are the languages that I am 
fluent in) please post it.  If you cannot find any, then stop trying to 
claim that my sources aren't good enough.

: Not
: that I can't imagine finding some Hungarian names among your supporters,
: but not all names are equal just because they write a book.

	Since you were obviously unwilling (or unable) to address the 
archeological record, I looked for ANY supporters of Out-of-Illyria, 
Hungarian or not, who did address it.  I could not find one.  (BTW, how 
credible are Hungarian - well magyarized Slovak names - that haven't 
published a book).

: And remember that notable quotable from *S* about the reputation of
: Romanian historians among their international coleagues: their speaches
: are usually received with a SILENCE HEAVY WITH MEANING!  
: Why do you think that is, Alexander?

	And who exactly is *S*?  Which Romanian historians was he 
refering to?  Who were their international coleagues?  Surely you don't 
expect me to spend any time thinking about a paragraph filled with so 
many gaps.

: > Otherwise, I think that we've all previously posted everything that we 
: >had to say on the subject.

: Yeap, and you didn't come out of it looking very good. ;-)

	I came out as well as Romania came out in Trianon ;-) 

	Alexander

In article >,  > wrote:
>
>    This is just an observation because I don't care one way or the next 
>about the language that students in romania learn in.  However you might 
>take the recent vote in quebec as a motive to stop lingual diversity in 
>transylvania.  This has happened in the united states where a congress 
>man (from my state even)as a result of recent event in Canada has 
>introduced a law that will effectly outlaw the teaching of lower level 
>classes in languages other than english.

The situation in the US and in Romania is not comparable.  Hungarians in
Transylvania are not recent immigrants there as those in the US who want
bilingual education for themselves.  There is a difference in how they
became strangers in the respective countries: in one case the border
moved and the people stayed, in the other the people moved and the
border stayed.  When I immigrated to the US, it would not have crossed
my mind that somehow the natives owed me the maintenance of my Hungarian
culture.  Is this such a difficult distinction to make?

Joe Pannon

In article >,  > wrote:
>
>   I think there are lots-o-people on this group that would disagree with 
>you on this point seeing as how Hungry got Transylvania in the first 
>place, but I will leave that point to others who know more about it. 

Just what do you know about how Hungary got Transylvania in the first
place, Scott?  I hope you are a little better versed on this one than
about the subject of dual citizenship.

Joe

Hi, 

I'm looking for Magyar stamp, from the years 1920 - 1975  to buy.

I've started a collection 15 years ago and just recently I looked at it and I 
notice that I don't have any Magyar stamps and I wish to give it over to my 
daughters so they can continue with it.

Is there anyone out there that can help me please or spare me with a few of 
your duplicates stamps.

I thank you in advance.

send e-mail to

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?
>
>Scott Laws wrote:
>>    They would loose so does it matter?
>
>True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.

	Yeah, yeah, blah, blah... Bilingual society. Of course, how beautiful.



--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Dan Pop wrote:
>>Unlike Canada and Switzerland, Romania is not a federal country.
>
>It is a unitary state. Yes we know. By the will of the Romanian people, or
>at least by the will of Romanian kings and dictators. In any event, it was
>hardly a consequence of a enlightened democratic decision.
>
	Yes, Wally ? Are you sure ? I wouldn't, if I were in YOUR place. Were you 
there ?

>>>If Romania is truly a democratic nation serious about joining the ranks 
>>>of Western democracies, the answer surely must be yes.  
>
>>How about other Western democracies, like France, which don't even 
>>admit having ethnic minorities?  Romania is considerably better off WRT
>>minority rights than many Western democracies.  
>
>How about the Western democracy, like Canada? Canada is vastly better off
>with minority rights than Romania. Can we talk?
>
	Don't forget, Canada is on another continent, it isn't in Europe. 
Mentalities are different. On the other hand, I am sure Canada had a moral debt
 
towards the French because, actually, besides the rather few Louisians, the 
Quebecois are about the only French on this continent. In EUROPE this is not th
e 
case. It is not an excuse, though, but it explains the difference between 
Canada's and Europe's attitudes.

>>This fact was acknowledged by most Western delegations which came to
>>Romania to investigate the situation of the minorities, especially as a
>>result of the complaints of the Hungarians.

--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?
>
>Scott Laws wrote:
>>    They would loose so does it matter?
>
>True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.



--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

HUNGARIAN TV BROADCASTS BANNED IN ROMANIA. Hungarian media on 8 November
  reported that Romania's National Media Council has decided to ban
  broadcasts by Duna TV, a Hungarian satellite program on cable network.
  The head of the council told ethnic Hungarian deputy Ferenc Baranyi that
  no license will be issued to cable television companies "for a certain
  period of time." He said that according to information received by the
  council, Duna TV broadcasts create suspicion between ethnic minorities
  and the majority and are capable of "whipping up artificial tension." --

In article > , 
writes:
>What's next?  Jamming the satellite signals like in the good old days
>jamming RFE?
>I wonder what CE will have to say about this.

Does this mean, that privatelly owned cable networks in towns and
villages where only Hungarians live, are forbidden to broadcast the 
programmes of DUNA TV which otherwise can be received anywhere
in Europe from the satellite of ASTRA ?

Tamás

 wrote:
: Alexander Bossy > wrote:

: that finding a Roman vase is no proof of the ethnicity of its owner,
: you were not impressed.  Yet, a lot of so called "archeological proof"
: of Daco-Roman continuity is based on this kind of logic.

	If you really, seriously want to re-open this argument, say so, 
and I will argue it all over again.  But, having learned my lesson last 
time, I'll cross-post to the archeology and classics newsgroups so that 
you can't simply dismiss thousands of objects as simply "finding a Roman 
vase".

: >That means that his analysis of the languages, while very detailed, and 
: >interesting no doubt, can't be used to prove (or disprove) your 
: >Out-of-Illyria pet theory.

: As if I was the only one with that theory, right?

	Nowadays?  Almost.

: >: Really?  How about some names and titles from those Hungarians?
: >
: >	I can't give them to you any longer.  I don't keep records of 
: >everything that I do for eight or nine months in case you suddenly get 
: >curious.  (And you didn't ask for names and titles last winter).  If you 

: Hah!  This is a good one!  You rub the candy under my nose by claiming
: something I find highly interesting, then when challenged to produce
: the evidence, you pass the ball back to me.  Alexander!  It was you who
: brought it up, not me!

	Joe, you are arguing Out-of-Illyria.  Don't you have any sources 
for it?  Is this only based on old wives' tales you learned in childhood, 
or have you actually done some research?  I only want the name of one 
book written this decade, or last, that agrees with your beliefs.  And, 
unlike you, I don't care what the author's exact genetic make-up is.

: >	I was looking for ANY accademic support of Out-of-Illyria, so 
: >that I could address any credible counter-arguments to Romanian 
: >continuity.  I looked at all kinds of books: histories of Hungary 
: >translated from Hungarian, histories of Transylvania, etc. etc.  While 

: But Alexander!  You've already forgotten your long arguments with Liviu?
: He cited plenty of works supporting the Out-of-Illiria argument.

	Look at the dates.  I did.  Lots of 1960's, and some 1970's. Also, 
almsot all of his argument was about linguistics.  I'm much more 
interested in the archeology since it can actually prove something.

: (BTW, how credible are Hungarian - well magyarized Slovak names - that haven'
t 
: >published a book).

: I'm not sure whom you are talking about.  Is this supposed to be a cheap
: shot?

	Oh, I think that you know who I was talking about.  And yes, I admit 
that it is a cheap shot.

:  What have magyarized Slovak names to do with anything (as if you
: recognized them, in any case)?  The Bossy name doesn't sound exactly
: Romanian, either. ;-)

	The correct transliteration from cyrilic is "Bossii", but my great 
great grandfather was a great Francophile, so he changed the spelling.  
(One of Napoleon's generals was named Bossy).  At least his friends 
disuaded him from changing it to "de Bossy".

	If you know any Latin, you will recognize that "-ii" is a very 
common tribe of clan name ending (nominative plural of the first 
declention.  E.g., Gaius Julius Caesar's clan was the Julii - or more 
accurately, the Iulii).  The Romanian "-u" ending is a corruption of the 
nominative singular "-us" ending of the first declention.

	Consequently, while Bossy/Bossii may not "sound Romanian", it 
shares a nearly identical etymology with the vast majority of Romanian 
family names.

: >	And who exactly is *S*?  Which Romanian historians was he 
: >refering to?  Who were their international coleagues?  Surely you don't 
: >expect me to spend any time thinking about a paragraph filled with so 
: >many gaps.

: Reading his post,

	I haven't.

: an objective person would have no trouble recognizing
: that he knows what he is talking about.

	I never saw his post.   I never read his post.  Whether or not 
you consider me an objective person, I can't tell you if I think that he 
knows what he was talking about - and you are trying to convince me, 
aren't you? - based merely on you remarks.

: I took his statement to be a
: general indictment of today's Romanian historians, hence no names were
: given.  However, as with all such generalizations, some exceptions to it
: are usually understood without actually saying it.  That's how I took
: it.

	Fine, Joe, but I'd rather make up my own mind on *S*'s 
objectivity, and I'd need to know a lot more than the few hints and clues 
that you've droped on the subject.

	Alexander

T. Kocsis > wrote:
>
>  HUNGARIAN TV BROADCASTS BANNED IN ROMANIA. Hungarian media on 8 November
>  reported that Romania's National Media Council has decided to ban
>  broadcasts by Duna TV, a Hungarian satellite program on cable network.
>  The head of the council told ethnic Hungarian deputy Ferenc Baranyi that
>  no license will be issued to cable television companies "for a certain
>  period of time." He said that according to information received by the
>  council, Duna TV broadcasts create suspicion between ethnic minorities
>  and the majority and are capable of "whipping up artificial tension." --
>
>In article > , 
>writes:
>>What's next?  Jamming the satellite signals like in the good old days
>>jamming RFE?
>>I wonder what CE will have to say about this.
>
>Does this mean, that privatelly owned cable networks in towns and
>villages where only Hungarians live, are forbidden to broadcast the 
>programmes of DUNA TV which otherwise can be received anywhere
>in Europe from the satellite of ASTRA ?
>
>Tam=E1s

Don't worry:

ROMANIA DENIES BANNING HUNGARIAN TV CHANNEL. Romania's National Audio-
Visual Council has denied banning broadcasts of the Hungarian satellite
program Duna TV on cable network (see OMRI Daily Digest, 8 November),
Romanian media reported on 9-10 November. The controversial decision
aroused strong criticism among Romania's Hungarian minority. -- Matyas
Szabo (OMRI, Friday)

BTW, in the thread entitled 'Romania bans Hungarian TV broadcast?' on 
soc.culture.romanian and soc.culture.magyar, read Paul S. Markovits more 
_REALISTIC_ explanation. Anyways, it comes from a more reliable source... I 
think someone ON THE SPOT is better informed than who knows what 
newspaper/journalist from 'the Hungarian media'... All media are full of 
unreliable newspapers -- a sad reality. If we were to believe everything that 
is printed... :-(

	Cheers.

--

Vlad Romascanu                                      

         '
_[E_O_Msg]____________________________________________________________________
_

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?
>
>Scott Laws wrote:
>>    They would loose so does it matter?
>
>True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.

	Yeah, yeah, blah, blah... Bilingual society. Of course, how beautiful.



--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?
>
>Scott Laws wrote:
>>    They would loose so does it matter?
>
>True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.

	Yeah, yeah, blah, blah... Bilingual society. Of course, how beautiful.



--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?
>
>Scott Laws wrote:
>>    They would loose so does it matter?
>
>True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.

	Yeah, yeah, blah, blah... Bilingual society. Of course, how beautiful.



--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?
>
>Scott Laws wrote:
>>    They would loose so does it matter?
>
>True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.



--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?
>
>Scott Laws wrote:
>>    They would loose so does it matter?
>
>True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.



--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?
>
>Scott Laws wrote:
>>    They would loose so does it matter?
>
>True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.



--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy wrote:
>>And should the Hungarians in Transylvania decide to test their strength
>>and call for a referendum about autonomy -- would Romania conduct the >
>>polling with the same scrupulous fairness as Canada did?
>
>Scott Laws wrote:
>>    They would loose so does it matter?
>
>True enough. However, there could be a slow evolution of culture that
>might make the Magyars and Romanians in Transylvania consider themselves
>as distinct from the rest of Romania, then add to this, a widening
>economic disparity between Transylvanians and their slovenly southern belt
>cousins, and maybe we'll begin to see the idea of Transylvanian autonomy
>take root. By this means, Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.

	Yes, Wally, yes. Blah, blah, and blah blah again.

	I'm sure that you, as a good Canadian that you are you'd be very happy if 
Quebec separated. Well, did you read all the discussions on this subject ? 
Transilvania vs. Quebec ? The difference between the Quebequois and the other 
Canadians are much much MUCH more important than differences between even 
Transylvanian magyars and Romanians -- then what about differences between 
Transylvania's Romanians and 'the rest' of Romanians ? For Transylvania to beco
me 
an independent state you'd have to convince some millions of Transylvanian 
ROMANIANS that they are different, and/or that they want to separate from 'the 
other' Romanians.

	Wally, one can see you weren't born in Europe. You think typically American 
(sorry for the insult...). You think that what people built and tried to build 
for 
centuries, one can destroy because of some, may I say temporary, economical 
situation ? How else are you going to convince ethnical Romanians in order to a
dd 
them up with the Hungarians wanting secession, to create a more-than-50% 
secessionist population ? And do you think any state in the world (besides Cana
da, 
of course) would allow the vote of a region to decide for the fate of the count
ry ? 
There are 8% Hungarians in Romania, not more. I am very curious: how you are go
ing 
to convince more than 42% of the romanian population (around 9.66 millions) to 
vote 
for separation ?

	Be realistic, Wally, Europe is not America... Things are not resolved that 
esily. BTW, in Europe (still) logic is considered first, political-correctness 
afterwards. In Europe (still) one cannot escape justice by accusing the prosecu
tion 
of racism only because he was lucky enough to be born with a different skin-col
our 
and to live in a country with a very political-correct legislation... 

	And, BTW, in Europe the tendency is 'UNITY', not 'separatism'. Well, 
foreign-country fragmentation DOES suit US, but that doesn't mean AT ALL it's a
 
good, or even acceptable choice. Of course, who's big is powerful. The same thi
ng 
is valid for Russia. And of course, the task of the new, conservative Russia, o
nce 
back as a mondial power, will only be facilitated if it finds an even MORE divi
ded 
(Eastern) Europe.

	Well, Wally, think about it... And re-read some history and look for 
identical situations. History repeats itself, because people don't learn from i
t.

	Cheers.

--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

Nguyen Tri Duc > wrote:
 
>
>Does not buddha-nature also have ten-thousand mindless parasites?
>
I would have to say that it depends on the sect.  SGI for example would 
be a little higher.  While zen might be a little lower.  Our ruskie 
friends who spam would number about the same as five hundred thousand 
billion nayuta asamkhya worlds crushed to dust.  I forgot my karmic 
calculator but you can figure it out longhand if you'd like.

gasho

In article >,  (Dan Pop) says:

>This diversity is no longer what it used to be.  The Saxons have left,
>the Jews have left, so Transylvania is inhabited today mostly by Romanians,
>Hungarians and Gypsies.

I know.

>And the primary reason it is unlikely is that the Romanians, who form the
>absolute majority of Transylvania's population (by a large margin) don't
>want it.  Looks like a very good reason to me.

...and to me: but Romanians are not in that large a majority in ALL 
areas, although Ceacescu's cronies worked hard at diminishing Romanian 
minorities by *encouraging* migrations of various groups. That's why 
I wrote *unlikely*.

George 

*** George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK ***
             * Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy *  *
    >Please sell me your old Commodore64 hardware, software, books & mags<
            >Interested in secondhand chess books? Ask for my list<

 wrote:
>Nguyen Tri Duc > wrote:
> 
>>
>>Does not buddha-nature also have ten-thousand mindless parasites?
>>
>I would have to say that it depends on the sect.  SGI for example would 
>be a little higher.  While zen might be a little lower.  Our ruskie 
>friends who spam would number about the same as five hundred thousand 
>billion nayuta asamkhya worlds crushed to dust.  I forgot my karmic 
>calculator but you can figure it out longhand if you'd like.


I did not mean to say that adherants to Buddhism are parasites; I was 
trying to be zenlike by suggesting that even those on the lower end
of the evolutionary chart, such as our gutter-mouthed Russian brother,
all hold a place in the "Diamond Net of Sidra."  EVEN HE is a part of
the universal sangha and is part and parcel of the karma in which he 
seems to struggle. Even so, you make a humorous point and I am glad I
was so ambiguous.  Perhaps we are all parasites of sorts, it just seems 
that some are of the maggot variety in they they relish life in 
the garbage heaps....which puts us right back into his perspective 
doesn't it?  So I say to myselt, "This person is perhaps spiritually sick 
[too].  What can I do to be helpful[to him]?"   All the same, I wish a 
Zen master would walk up and slap the son of a bitch.   ;)

-nguyen tri duc

CHARLES VAMOSSY ) wrote:
:  (Alexander Bossy) wrote:
:  wrote:
: >
: >: Since when is it that Romanians determine who represents Transylvania
: >: Hungarians' interests?
: >
: >	Since 1918, when the Transylvanian Hungarians became Romanian 
: >citizens. ;-)

: Even the ethnic Hungarians' interests, accoriding to Alexander, must be 
: represented by Romanians.

: Although there are between 1.5 to 2 million Hungarians live there 
: (depends on your source), but not a single one can entrusted to represent 
: their own interests.

	<sigh>

	Charles:

	You completely misunderstood what I was saying.  The ethnic 
Hungarians living in Transylvania are Romanian citizens - i.e., they ARE 
Romanians.  Let them represent themselves.  They don't need the entire 
Hungarian diaspora to represent them, disenfanchising them in the process.

	Since they are living in Romania, they have a much better feel 
for how bad things are, and for what can be fixed - and most importantly, 
for what actions will backfire (for example, your recent suggestion of a 
vote on secession).

	They are you ethnic kin.  Support them, if you want to.  I, for 
one, don't mind.  But, let THEM lead: the problems are Romanian problems, 
and they are Romanian citizens.

	Let's remember that we do have a few Transylvanian voices on the: 
Matyas, recently, and Lehel (sp?) in the not so distant past.  Ask them 
what the problems are (and they will tell you that there are problems).  
Listen to them.  Learn from them.  And, sadly, observe that they feel 
that they need to use a anonymous remailer to post their quite moderate 
views.  :-(  There is much more than merely minority rights that needs to 
be fixed before Romania becomes a fully democratic nation.

	Alexander